Install Steam
login
|
language
简体中文 (Simplified Chinese)
繁體中文 (Traditional Chinese)
日本語 (Japanese)
한국어 (Korean)
ไทย (Thai)
Български (Bulgarian)
Čeština (Czech)
Dansk (Danish)
Deutsch (German)
Español - España (Spanish - Spain)
Español - Latinoamérica (Spanish - Latin America)
Ελληνικά (Greek)
Français (French)
Italiano (Italian)
Bahasa Indonesia (Indonesian)
Magyar (Hungarian)
Nederlands (Dutch)
Norsk (Norwegian)
Polski (Polish)
Português (Portuguese - Portugal)
Português - Brasil (Portuguese - Brazil)
Română (Romanian)
Русский (Russian)
Suomi (Finnish)
Svenska (Swedish)
Türkçe (Turkish)
Tiếng Việt (Vietnamese)
Українська (Ukrainian)
Report a translation problem
Discussions Rules and Guidelines
Report this post
That said, yes, those 2 (or 3 counting rental) joker debuffs are very annoying to me too.
Pre patch, at least, jokers found in packs were immune, they never were eternal. Post patch, not only are there 2 more debuffs to deal with, but no joker ever has immunity to all 3 debuffs. So the vast majority, about 2/3 of jokers we see are not clean jokers.
It would be nice to have jokers at the shop immune. Not packs, just jokers displayed at the shop. That way jokers obtained from skipping tags would be worth something at high stakes. As it is now, all joker tags are a gamble that is never worth it at gold stake.
If no joker is ever immune as I just described, then yes, I agree, a way to clean jokers of debuffs is much needed. I thought about that before and the ways to implement it that I imagined would be different than yours.
My first thought was Wheel of Fortune, the tarot card. What if on top of the 1 in 4 it already has, it also had a 1 in 4 to clean a random joker of all its debuffs? It would work like lucky cards do, in the sense that both effects could trigger from the same Wheel of Fortune if you are lucky.
1/4 x 1/4 = 1/16 of it happening.
It's not an ideal way to do it though. The debuffs hurt a lot more early in a run than they do late in a run. So if getting rid of the debuffs is tied to using a WoF that costs money to buy and that is RNG heavy (both in finding one and having it trigger), then it all remains pretty bad for the early game.
Maybe the main issue is the 1 in 4. What if it were 100%? Food for thought.
Your solution kind of runs into the same problem. $5 late game changes nothing. $5 early game change everything.
Another solution could be as simple as all boss blinds having a 50% to clean a joker when defeated. So it would still be really bad to have many perishable and rental at the same time. But at least there would be hope that a perishable Abstract joker found at ante 1, for example, could still be in your lineup when entering ante 4.
I think it's better than my previous idea. Still not perfect.
I feel like keeping those debuffs in the game, even with ways to remove them is a bad idea, no matter what.
I much prefer the idea of shop jokers being immune instead.
And I'd prefer to that a total rework of orange and gold stakes' penalties. Byebye perishable and rental. Eternal jokers can stay. As it is orange and gold fail at making the game more difficult, while making it more annoying. But it's not easy to fix that. I could spit out 100 ideas to replace orange and gold, pretty sure none would make me happy.
It's tough. High stakes have been sitting at a weird place since the patch. Achievement hunters are happy and that's a positive thing. But that's it. Other than that, the issues high stakes had simply became different issues.
This feels even more of a terrible gamble, maybe its just me but i very rarely able to get any WoFs to do anything and sometimes not get at all. It's just even more rgn on top of existing 30% tags.
That's kinda the point tho, the game is way more problematic to get through initially and harder to fix at later stages. There could be more adjustments to money economy which would make both prices more equal in weight, but the thing is that it gives player more agency on his choices.
I'm not against it, but it will basically make 80% of tags disappear as most of your jokers generally come from the shop.
I'd go with a clean joker, like invisible joker it takes 2/3 rounds to 'activiate' then removes all tags on the joker on the left, and self destructs
Gotta disagree.
Endgame, rental is the only debuff that actually changes anything. Perishable won't have time to perish. Eternal are either good enough to pick or not good enough to pick, the fact that they are eternal changes nothing at this point in a run.
I'm curious. What's your playaround when it comes to rental early game? Because I personally never had one that cost me less than $4 if I kept it for a full blind.
Yes, please keep on reading, don't quote out of context, I'm not too fond of people doing that... so I'll have to quote myself since you didn't do it.
See? I'm aware of the issues that it would cause. The 100% fixes one RNG aspect of it. Many players are complaining about "WoF never triggering", at least there would be that guaranteed positive result.
And I said it in the part you opted to snip. The solution is not ideal. It still isn't ideal at 100% either.
Not saying your idea is strictly bad. But let's build concrete examples.
Suppose you beat the first small blind, then open the buffoon pack at the shop.
If the best offered joker is rental, then your solution would not be inapplicable, right? The rental costs you money, you can never pay to fix it so you either lose the game or you get rid of the joker before being able to fix it. Worth noting, that's why for me, rental is the worst debuff. It kills all jokers in the early game. With eternal or perishable, at least you're left with some wiggle room.
If the best offered joker is eternal, then it's worth picking it no matter what. Why? Because $5 late game is nothing. And until your joker lineup is full and you want to replace one, you won't have to get rid of any joker. If the time comes that you need to get rid of the eternal joker, $5 changes nothing at that point.
If the best offered joker is perishable, then it should always be picked, no matter what. Why? You already paid for the pack, the joker comes at no additional cost. Later, mid ante 3 or maybe ante 4 if some blinds were skipped, you get the option to pay $5 to get rid of the debuff. In this case, there's likely a real decision to take. It would come down to having a better replacement offered at the shop or not, also to being in trouble or not by just letting the joker go.
In summary, rental jokers are garbage, with or without your solution. Eternal jokers require thinking and a good evaluation without your solution, they require no thinking with your solution. Perishable jokers require no thinking when offered, with and without your solution. They require some thinking later, with or without your solution.
Your solution makes the game easier, as any solution would, by providing a way to deal with debuffs in some cases. It also makes decisions related to debuffed jokers easier to take on average (because inexistent), so less interesting.
The thing is, all this is not because your solution is horrible, not at all, your solution does what it can. But it can only do so much. The problems come from the debuffs themselves and the ante structure, not from the solutions, including yours.
And that's why orange and gold should be reworked, instead of trying to patch them with bandaids.
I can guarantee you, the % is much lower than 80%. That's 4 jokers from the shop for 1 from packs, there's just no way. But really, whatever the real % is, even if it were 80%, that solution adds decisions to be taken, and that's a good thing, I think everyone would agree, the more decisions, the more interesting. Currently, if you have the money for a joker pack and you need jokers, no question asked: buy the pack, it's better value than a reroll. If the shop were immune, is it better to buy the pack? Or better to reroll knowing that a joker would be clean? Or try to keep the money for now, knowing that the next shop will likely offer at least a joker, that is guaranteed clean if it's there?
I do not disagree with that. Any joker being immune is a lot better than status quo.
So, packs or shop?
One reason I prefer the shop is the joker tags. It is infuriating to skip a blind for a joker tag and get a rental joker out of it. Another reason is that if packs were immune, I have a feeling the game would be so easy right from ante 1, that gold and purple stakes would basically be the same stake level. They nearly already are.
But yeah, your point about awful packs is valid. The current problem is that whenever you reroll the shop or buy a pack, it's a gamble. And getting 4 debuffed jokers happens, it is not fun at all when the gamble was forced on you.
Imagine the shop always offers you clean jokers though. What should you do? Buy one from the shop, or gamble a buffoon pack? If you go for the pack and it's bad, the choice was yours, YOU decided to gamble. And worst case scenario, you have a clean joker waiting for you at the shop once you see the pack is terrible. It's a lot better than the current 33% or so probability of a joker being clean, leaving you no real options 67% of the times.
Very interesting discussion, to me at least.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3216507324
Ugh. Yeah, that too. Joker tags should probably remove Rental and maybe perishable (Eternal is fine, annoying, but fine). I think the only time I've bought a free joker that had perishable was when it was a Negative. The five round boost was nice, but because it was negative, I didn't have to sell it after it expired. It could sit there and count as +1 joker (for Abstract, etc).
Here's how things went for me.
I got Completionist+.
At that point, my sticker completion bar was at 65-70%.
I started griding gold stickers with the Ghost deck, exclusively.
Got to Completionist++.
So from my experience, Ghost deck is fine.
Plus, at gold stake, guaranteeing that all rental jokers in the shop are ALSO eternal destroys the game.
If the black stake penalty is not eternal jokers, then what's your suggestion for a replacement?