Negative Invisible joker glitch killed run

[Acrai]

Screenshot of the joker slots- https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3264850783

I got an invisible joker as a negative, sold it, and it duped a card despite not having space for it without negative status. 6/5 jokers with the -1 joker +2 hand deck.
It got me to anti 11! But later on when I came across a tag for negative cards, it wouldn't allow me to get it. And the next tag was ALSO a negative. I had just reduced the anti too, so I would have absolutely crushed 12 for the first time if this didn't screw me out of the run. Such a vibe wreck.

[Draco18s]

Knowing that negative jokers couldn't be bought, you shouldn't have skipped the blind for the negative tag.

[srn347]

None of your jokers were eternal, so you could've just sold one and picked up the negative.

[Acrai]

Originally posted by Draco18s:

Knowing that negative jokers couldn't be bought, you shouldn't have skipped the blind for the negative tag.

"knowing", i didnt. invisible joker was negative, duped a joker that made the run really great. had no idea that it would prevent me from getting negatives later on because it allowed me to sell the invisible joker. this obviously is not intended as its a joker slot counter problem. this is a clarity issue im describing, and it lost me my ante 12 win.

[Acrai]

Originally posted by srn347:

None of your jokers were eternal, so you could've just sold one and picked up the negative.

id have to sell what got me to ante 11 and fail the next blind just so i could allow my chance of getting non-guaranteed negatives later. the negative spade mult wasnt going to change a thing, but if it were a better card id still have to sell 1 really good joker that got me that far.
this unintended use of invisible joker and the clarity around the joker slot counter killed what was a really enjoyable and well playing run.

[Draco18s]

Originally posted by Acrai:

this obviously is not intended as its a joker slot counter problem.

Actually it is. There's a challenge mode that each round your total number of allowed jokers reduces by 1. So at some point you can't buy more jokers, even negative ones.

[Acrai]

Originally posted by Draco18s:

Originally posted by Acrai:

this obviously is not intended as its a joker slot counter problem.

Actually it is. There's a challenge mode that each round your total number of allowed jokers reduces by 1. So at some point you can't buy more jokers, even negative ones.

well that does sound interesting. seems harsh that you can accidentally stumble into it on accident with a negative invisible joker though and not even know for 2 or 3 antes. as far as unintended, then thats all i mean.
if it could be excluded from becoming negative thatd be great, theres other cards with exclusions i believe, so its not like its unprecedented. just kinda sucked the fun out of it and did bring this much of a conversation to it just to make it understood.
didnt make things more challenging or interesting like the intended challenge, its like i just woke up with mesothelioma from something i did 10 years ago.

[Spawnling]

Originally posted by Acrai:

"knowing", i didnt. invisible joker was negative, duped a joker that made the run really great. had no idea that it would prevent me from getting negatives later on because it allowed me to sell the invisible joker. this obviously is not intended as its a joker slot counter problem. this is a clarity issue im describing, and it lost me my ante 12 win.

Originally posted by Acrai:

Screenshot of the joker slots-
It got me to anti 11!

Kind of funny how the same joker that won you ante 11, lost you ante 12.
You didn't want to sell off another joker for the negatives who add a joker slot, they are not "free", that's what lost you ante 12.

Originally posted by Acrai:

if it could be excluded from becoming negative thatd be great, theres other cards with exclusions i believe, so its not like its unprecedented. just kinda sucked the fun out of it and did bring this much of a conversation to it just to make it understood.

Excluding it from negative would only force you to sell a joker even earlier, just to pick it up. I don't know how that would make anything better.

[Acrai]

Originally posted by Spawnling:

Originally posted by Acrai:

"knowing", i didnt. invisible joker was negative, duped a joker that made the run really great. had no idea that it would prevent me from getting negatives later on because it allowed me to sell the invisible joker. this obviously is not intended as its a joker slot counter problem. this is a clarity issue im describing, and it lost me my ante 12 win.

Originally posted by Acrai:

Screenshot of the joker slots-
It got me to anti 11!

Kind of funny how the same joker that won you ante 11, lost you ante 12.
You didn't want to sell off another joker for the negatives who add a joker slot, they are not "free", that's what lost you ante 12.

Originally posted by Acrai:

if it could be excluded from becoming negative thatd be great, theres other cards with exclusions i believe, so its not like its unprecedented. just kinda sucked the fun out of it and did bring this much of a conversation to it just to make it understood.

Excluding it from negative would only force you to sell a joker even earlier, just to pick it up. I don't know how that would make anything better.

the jump in chips is still a lot between 11 and 12, literally the challenge curve of the game. having me sell the card sooner at like ant 8 or 9 would leave me with a lot more wiggle room than literally having no choice by to eat it at 11. yeah anyone who complains about something not being clear can "git gud" but this isnt a part of the design language that makes the game fun, this is something that made me believe my enjoyment was well placed and told me the last 10 minutes were the wrong thing to do.

[Spawnling]

Originally posted by Acrai:

the jump in chips is still a lot between 11 and 12, literally the challenge curve of the game. having me sell the card sooner at like ant 8 or 9 would leave me with a lot more wiggle room than literally having no choice by to eat it at 11. yeah anyone who complains about something not being clear can "git gud" but this isnt a part of the design language that makes the game fun, this is something that made me believe my enjoyment was well placed and told me the last 10 minutes were the wrong thing to do.

The point was I trying to make: Could you afford having an Invisible Joker that's not negative and to carry it around?
If not then you shouldn't complain about it being useful to you?

[Acrai]

Originally posted by Spawnling:

Originally posted by Acrai:

the jump in chips is still a lot between 11 and 12, literally the challenge curve of the game. having me sell the card sooner at like ant 8 or 9 would leave me with a lot more wiggle room than literally having no choice by to eat it at 11. yeah anyone who complains about something not being clear can "git gud" but this isnt a part of the design language that makes the game fun, this is something that made me believe my enjoyment was well placed and told me the last 10 minutes were the wrong thing to do.

The point was I trying to make: Could you afford having an Invisible Joker that's not negative and to carry it around?
If not then you shouldn't complain about it being useful to you?

i have no idea what youre on about. i would very easily be able to make room for an invisible joker thats not negative at ante 8 or so, my build wasnt that good then and i was just taking what i could get iirc, and it worked out once i duped that good card and i built around it.
youre talking about very situational things with negatives, this isnt "im bad at the game and need to understand risk reward of negative cards and invisible jokers" like youre explaining to me, im saying it isnt fun because it took me a couple antes to even realize i was screwed out of all my work.
i would not be able to do anything with an extra joker slot from a bad negative because id have to sell the only things making my build even work, my run was ruined once i got the negative joker. i would have preferred to have lost the run not being screwed over by this even if im just bad at the game and need to learn like youre trying to teach me.
besides, its not even "an extra joker slot" its just an extra card that doesnt add to the total and doesnt do anything unless i do thing to holo or poly it later. id be selling a card or two just for a worse thing and lose the very next blind. what am i not explaining right?
im talking about a mechanic, not my playing strategy or skill level.

[Donathan Cheadledge]

Can't work out if the invisible lad making your slots 6 out of 5 is a feature or a bug. It could be argued either way really - the invisible joker is supposed to duplicate a joker either way and the card text doesn't specify that there must be room (where other jokers such as riff-raff do), but also the joker slots are usually the top priority.

The negative jokers afterwards are definitely working as intended. Negatives clearly state that what they do is increase your maximum slots by 1, which is why you're normally able to buy one with a full hand.

It's a nuance that's easily missed cause in normal gameplay you just treat negatives as free cards, but I don't see that as a game design issue. In an ideal world maybe you would've done something else instead of skipping the tag, but to be honest looking at the screenshot I don't see much of a way past ante 11 with that set of jokers in any case - nothing there really scales at a fast enough rate for those ridiculous high ante score requirements. Many builds that are otherwise great don't scale well for endless mode, even without the issue you had. Take the dub you got and don't worry about the hypothetical run you didn't have.

[Draco18s]

Originally posted by Donathan Cheadledge:

but to be honest looking at the screenshot I don't see much of a way past ante 11 with that set of jokers in any case - nothing there really scales at a fast enough rate for those ridiculous high ante score requirements.

Agreed. And in the situation at the screenshot point in time, "Hard sell Odd Todd, buy Wrathful."

Odd Todd is such a small percentage of your points potential at this point that not-having it is not going to kill you, while Wrathful could pick up a decent chunk of points (given the two Holograms, two polychrome, and Family).

[Acrai]

Originally posted by Donathan Cheadledge:

Can't work out if the invisible lad making your slots 6 out of 5 is a feature or a bug. It could be argued either way really - the invisible joker is supposed to duplicate a joker either way and the card text doesn't specify that there must be room (where other jokers such as riff-raff do), but also the joker slots are usually the top priority.

The negative jokers afterwards are definitely working as intended. Negatives clearly state that what they do is increase your maximum slots by 1, which is why you're normally able to buy one with a full hand.

It's a nuance that's easily missed cause in normal gameplay you just treat negatives as free cards, but I don't see that as a game design issue. In an ideal world maybe you would've done something else instead of skipping the tag, but to be honest looking at the screenshot I don't see much of a way past ante 11 with that set of jokers in any case - nothing there really scales at a fast enough rate for those ridiculous high ante score requirements. Many builds that are otherwise great don't scale well for endless mode, even without the issue you had. Take the dub you got and don't worry about the hypothetical run you didn't have.

not specifying room is a really great point!! it expects itself to be taking up a slot, so it shouldnt be a possible negative. this is the only card that breaks the counter like this, its a reliable way too, so i dont think it should be possible even if a previous person mentioned theres a challenge run involving the counter like this.
memory is hazy on what my deck looked like but when i saw the numbers i was pulling it did feel like id clear 12.

[Spawnling]

Originally posted by Acrai:

Originally posted by Spawnling:

The point was I trying to make: Could you afford having an Invisible Joker that's not negative and to carry it around?
If not then you shouldn't complain about it being useful to you?

i have no idea what youre on about. i would very easily be able to make room for an invisible joker thats not negative at ante 8 or so, my build wasnt that good then and i was just taking what i could get iirc, and it worked out once i duped that good card and i built around it.
youre talking about very situational things with negatives, this isnt "im bad at the game and need to understand risk reward of negative cards and invisible jokers" like youre explaining to me, im saying it isnt fun because it took me a couple antes to even realize i was screwed out of all my work.
i would not be able to do anything with an extra joker slot from a bad negative because id have to sell the only things making my build even work, my run was ruined once i got the negative joker. i would have preferred to have lost the run not being screwed over by this even if im just bad at the game and need to learn like youre trying to teach me.
besides, its not even "an extra joker slot" its just an extra card that doesnt add to the total and doesnt do anything unless i do thing to holo or poly it later. id be selling a card or two just for a worse thing and lose the very next blind. what am i not explaining right?
im talking about a mechanic, not my playing strategy or skill level.

So your point is that you'd rather lose early without a chance of winning than having 6/5 joker slots and that everyone else should do so, too?

[Acrai]

Originally posted by Spawnling:

Originally posted by Acrai:

i have no idea what youre on about. i would very easily be able to make room for an invisible joker thats not negative at ante 8 or so, my build wasnt that good then and i was just taking what i could get iirc, and it worked out once i duped that good card and i built around it.
youre talking about very situational things with negatives, this isnt "im bad at the game and need to understand risk reward of negative cards and invisible jokers" like youre explaining to me, im saying it isnt fun because it took me a couple antes to even realize i was screwed out of all my work.
i would not be able to do anything with an extra joker slot from a bad negative because id have to sell the only things making my build even work, my run was ruined once i got the negative joker. i would have preferred to have lost the run not being screwed over by this even if im just bad at the game and need to learn like youre trying to teach me.
besides, its not even "an extra joker slot" its just an extra card that doesnt add to the total and doesnt do anything unless i do thing to holo or poly it later. id be selling a card or two just for a worse thing and lose the very next blind. what am i not explaining right?
im talking about a mechanic, not my playing strategy or skill level.

So your point is that you'd rather lose early without a chance of winning than having 6/5 joker slots and that everyone else should do so, too?

please tell me any other chard that acts like this or allows me to get 6/5, and please explain what unique play style is brought on from this being available. there is no strategy to be built from 6/5 jokers and does not give an advantage that scales with the difficulty for too long. if this is the only instance then it should be discouraged from being possible, or encouraged for a unique play style. there is already a challenge relying on decreasing joker slots, so the novelty exists, but not for intended natural run experiences.
my point is that without a false sense of security from this card, maybe i could have won with a different strategy, and if i didnt win it would be more satisfying that being invalidated of my enjoyment of the broken joker slot run.