Balatro
Vy 2024년 2월 9일 오후 1시 48분
4-card straight flush bug?
I have the four fingers joker and got a straight flush with Ac, 2c, 3h, 4c, 5c.
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Liderian 2024년 2월 9일 오후 2시 12분 
That's working as intended, I'm pretty sure. It's a straight and a flush on its own with four fingers, so there's nothing else you could call it.
Goblin 2024년 2월 9일 오후 2시 13분 
So it's literally working as intended, and...?
Vy 2024년 2월 9일 오후 3시 13분 
It could arguably be required to be consecutive. The straight involves a non-flush card.
Goblin 2024년 2월 9일 오후 3시 45분 
Nah. You need a straight and a flush to make a straight flush. You have 4 clubs, which according to the joker is a flush, and you have a full straight which you didn't even need. Your ace or 5 could have been any other club card and it'd still be a straight flush.
IsenMike 2024년 2월 11일 오전 8시 28분 
I had suspected that the game is defining a Straight Flush as any played hand that includes a Straight and a Flush, based just on the fact that the Four Fingers Joker lets you play a 4-card Straight Flush despite the Joker only referring explicitly to Straight and Flush hands (and on the fact that Shortcut applies to Straight Flush despite only explicitly referring to Straight). I'd say this "bug" confirms it.

I don't think that's a problem, though I do think there is an error in how the game explicitly defines Straight Flush for the player. If you hover over "Straight Flush" on the Poker Hands screen, it says: "5 cards in a row {consecutive ranks} with all cards sharing the same suit."

Part of the fun of this game is seeing how the poker hand definitions go weird when some of the implicit assumptions that they rely on start to break down. Most basic example is that, in nearly every variant of actual poker (i.e. all that are played with a single standard 52-card deck), there's an implicit assumption that two or more cards of the same rank can't be the same suit. In a real poker game if you have two copies of the Nine of Diamonds, you don't have a pair of nines, you have a misdealt hand.* So Balatro explicitly defining a pair as two cards of the same rank means it starts out as a match to the real poker hand, but begins going weird when you start manipulating the deck.

Defining Straight Flush as something to the effect of "Played hand includes both a Straight and a Flush" would do the same thing. That matches the IRL poker hand definition, before you start manipulating how "Straight" and "Flush" get defined with Balatro's Jokers. And it seems to be how the game is currently defining Straight Flush under the hood. It fits the theme and fun of the game, so I'd say it probably isn't a bug. But I do think the text string on that Poker Hands screen should be changed to more accurately tell players how the game defines a Straight Flush.

*(Unless it's a Yogscast poker stream and nobody at the table notices! 😆)

(edits to correct typos)
IsenMike 님이 마지막으로 수정; 2024년 2월 11일 오전 8시 33분
Goblin 2024년 2월 11일 오전 9시 05분 
You're right, that blurb probably should be "Hand that contains both a Straight and a Flush" to be most consistent with its actual behaviour and other terminology throughout the game. Or Four Fingers should explicitly mention straight flushes.
Liderian 2024년 2월 11일 오전 9시 07분 
The problem that arises when it doesn't become a straight flush would be that the game had to decide what it is. Is it a straight or a flush. Calling it both (as makes sense within the game's logic as IsenMike has aptly explained) circumvents that problem.
IsenMike 2024년 2월 11일 오전 10시 10분 
Goblin님이 먼저 게시:
You're right, that blurb probably should be "Hand that contains both a Straight and a Flush" to be most consistent with its actual behaviour and other terminology throughout the game. Or Four Fingers should explicitly mention straight flushes.

Even if Four Fingers explicitly mentioned Straight Flush, based on the text given to define Straight Flush on the Poker Hands screen, OP's hand wouldn't have qualified. Based on that text, the expectation would be that Four Fingers adjusts the Straight Flush definition to "4 or 5 cards in a row {consecutive ranks} with all cards sharing the same suit."

Looking purely at the text currently in the game, that Three of Hearts, in a hand otherwise full of Clubs, means the hand shouldn't count as a Straight Flush, even with Four Fingers. Ac 2c 3h 4c 5c could be a straight, and (with Four Fingers) Ac 2c 4c 5c could be a flush, but the hand isn't "cards in a row with all cards sharing the same suit" so it shouldn't be a Straight Flush.

The game thinks it is, because its internal logic defining a Straight Flush doesn't actually match the text defining a Straight Flush for the player. Its internal logic just checks whether the hand is both a Straight and a Flush; if the hand meets both criteria it gets counted as a Straight Flush.

That internal logic is more interesting, more fun, and better matches the tone of the game, than the text definition. But there's an old saying about the only difference between a bug and a feature being documentation. I'd say this technically is a bug, because results don't match expectation, as set by the documentation. But in this case the fix should just be to update that documentation; i.e. change the text string on the Poker Hands screen, to better reflect how the game actually defines a Straight Flush.
IsenMike 님이 마지막으로 수정; 2024년 2월 11일 오후 12시 12분
IsenMike 2024년 2월 11일 오후 12시 41분 
Liderian님이 먼저 게시:
The problem that arises when it doesn't become a straight flush would be that the game had to decide what it is. Is it a straight or a flush. Calling it both (as makes sense within the game's logic as IsenMike has aptly explained) circumvents that problem.

There are plenty of cases with just the standard poker hands, where a given hand might be counted as multiple different hands. In those cases you default to the highest rank.

For example AAAKK could be five cards scored as a Full House, it could be AAA scored as Three Of A Kind (with two un-scored cards), or it could be KK scored as One Pair (with three un-scored cards). Full House is the highest ranking option, so that's how AAAKK would get evaluated. That's a no-brainer in actual poker, but sort of turns into a key mechanic in Balatro, where you may have a lower hand rank upgraded to give more chips than a higher one, thanks to the Planet cards.

Based on how Straight Flush is defined on the Poker Hands screen, and using the logic above, I think it would be fair to expect OP's hand to be evaluated as a four-card Flush, with the Three of Hearts un-scored.

That seems less interesting or fun to me, so I suspect the actual result is the game working-as-intended. It's still a bug though, in a sense, because "working-as-intended" isn't the same as "working-as-expected." But the fix would just be to re-align intention and expectation, by updating that definition on the Poker Hands screen.
IsenMike 님이 마지막으로 수정; 2024년 2월 11일 오후 12시 45분
Goblin 2024년 2월 11일 오후 1시 32분 
IsenMike님이 먼저 게시:
For example AAAKK could be five cards scored as a Full House, it could be AAA scored as Three Of A Kind (with two un-scored cards), or it could be KK scored as One Pair (with three un-scored cards). Full House is the highest ranking option, so that's how AAAKK would get evaluated.
Not the most relevant example, since you can't make a full house without containing both pair and three of a kind.
A better example is what happens when you play 5 clubs to make a four of a kind. Pretty sure the 4 of a kind wins out there over flush, so it's whichever hand is higher on the initial list of hands that wins out, even if you have leveled flush a few times. Or at least that's how it worked last demo for sure, I don't think I've run into a similar scenario this demo.
Goblin 님이 마지막으로 수정; 2024년 2월 11일 오후 1시 33분
IsenMike 2024년 2월 11일 오후 1시 40분 
Goblin님이 먼저 게시:
IsenMike님이 먼저 게시:
For example AAAKK could be five cards scored as a Full House, it could be AAA scored as Three Of A Kind (with two un-scored cards), or it could be KK scored as One Pair (with three un-scored cards). Full House is the highest ranking option, so that's how AAAKK would get evaluated.
Not the most relevant example, since you can't make a full house without containing both pair and three of a kind.
A better example is what happens when you play 5 clubs to make a four of a kind. Pretty sure the 4 of a kind wins out there over flush, so it's whichever hand is higher on the initial list of hands that wins out, even if you have leveled flush a few times. Or at least that's how it worked last demo for sure, I don't think I've run into a similar scenario this demo.

Agreed that Full House isn't a terribly notable example since it isn't a Balatro-specific "edge case," and comes up every time you play a Full House. But it's still relevant in that it demonstrates the behavior. And, specific to Balatro, there might be reasons you actually prefer to score Three Of A Kind instead of Full House in a given run; so the fact that Balatro always evaluates the hand as the highest applicable rank is something players build familiarity and expectation around, before they do run into the stranger edge cases.
Goblin 2024년 2월 11일 오후 2시 17분 
On the topic of hand ranks: aren't flushes easier to make than straights? Feels weird for them to get rewarded slightly higher than straights when you can make them using literally any cards from a quarter of your deck, while straights need you to get specific cards from a sequence.
I didn't feel like that was worth a thread of its own but it did play through my mind a few times, and this feels like as good as any time to bring it up.
IsenMike 2024년 2월 11일 오후 2시 45분 
Goblin님이 먼저 게시:
On the topic of hand ranks: aren't flushes easier to make than straights? Feels weird for them to get rewarded slightly higher than straights when you can make them using literally any cards from a quarter of your deck, while straights need you to get specific cards from a sequence.
I didn't feel like that was worth a thread of its own but it did play through my mind a few times, and this feels like as good as any time to bring it up.

In standard poker, no, a flush is harder to make than a straight.

Consider that, for each card in your hand of a given suit, there's one less card of that suit in the deck you're drawing from. Imagine I'm just dealing you five cards, one-at-a-time. If I deal you one Club, the odds of the next card being a Club are 12-in-51, then 11-in-50, then 10-in-49, then 9-in-48. Any non-Club busts your flush.

Say you're going for a straight and I deal you a 5 as the first card. The second card can be any A,2,3,4,6,7,8,9 without busting your straight. That's 32-in-51. The math gets trickier from there, since it will depend on what the second card was (ex: an Ace eliminates A,6,7,8,9 as options, but a 4 only eliminates 4 & 9). But if you work out all the permutations it's still likelier that with five random cards you end up with a straight than with a flush.

Balatro certainly has situations where a flush is likelier, considering you can add/remove/modify cards in the deck, have wild cards, and can re-define what "Flush" and "Straight" even mean. But at the start of the game with a standard deck and no Jokers, the flush should still be harder to draw than a straight.
IsenMike 님이 마지막으로 수정; 2024년 2월 11일 오후 3시 01분
Goblin 2024년 2월 11일 오후 4시 27분 
IsenMike님이 먼저 게시:
Consider that, for each card in your hand of a given suit, there's one less card of that suit in the deck you're drawing from. Imagine I'm just dealing you five cards, one-at-a-time. If I deal you one Club, the odds of the next card being a Club are 12-in-51, then 11-in-50, then 10-in-49, then 9-in-48. Any non-Club busts your flush.

Say you're going for a straight and I deal you a 5 as the first card. The second card can be any A,2,3,4,6,7,8,9 without busting your straight. That's 32-in-51. The math gets trickier from there, since it will depend on what the second card was (ex: an Ace eliminates A,6,7,8,9 as options, but a 4 only eliminates 4 & 9). But if you work out all the permutations it's still likelier that with five random cards you end up with a straight than with a flush.
But this isn't standard poker, this is Balatro. You have more than 5 cards in your hand, you have discards, and you have to manually decide which cards to keep. With 3 discards and 3 extra hands, you can see (normally) 37/52 cards if you always discard five, so the chance you don't draw at least 5 of one suit is rather low. Meanwhile getting some cards in a certain range, discarding the rest, and then constantly getting more cards from outside of that range happens a lot more in my experience. Actual probability calculations are harder to figure out, but when it comes to how easy it is to pick an outcome you want and get said result, flushes are infinitely easier it seems.
IsenMike 2024년 2월 11일 오후 5시 40분 
Goblin님이 먼저 게시:
IsenMike님이 먼저 게시:
Consider that, for each card in your hand of a given suit, there's one less card of that suit in the deck you're drawing from. Imagine I'm just dealing you five cards, one-at-a-time. If I deal you one Club, the odds of the next card being a Club are 12-in-51, then 11-in-50, then 10-in-49, then 9-in-48. Any non-Club busts your flush.

Say you're going for a straight and I deal you a 5 as the first card. The second card can be any A,2,3,4,6,7,8,9 without busting your straight. That's 32-in-51. The math gets trickier from there, since it will depend on what the second card was (ex: an Ace eliminates A,6,7,8,9 as options, but a 4 only eliminates 4 & 9). But if you work out all the permutations it's still likelier that with five random cards you end up with a straight than with a flush.
But this isn't standard poker, this is Balatro. You have more than 5 cards in your hand, you have discards, and you have to manually decide which cards to keep. With 3 discards and 3 extra hands, you can see (normally) 37/52 cards if you always discard five, so the chance you don't draw at least 5 of one suit is rather low. Meanwhile getting some cards in a certain range, discarding the rest, and then constantly getting more cards from outside of that range happens a lot more in my experience. Actual probability calculations are harder to figure out, but when it comes to how easy it is to pick an outcome you want and get said result, flushes are infinitely easier it seems.

Before Jokers, card modifiers, and altering the deck come into play, the game is basically just 8-card Draw Poker. The fact that you're picking five cards to play from a hand of eight, and can re-draw up to five cards, makes it easier to get any given type of hand than if you were just dealt five cards and had to make do with that. But the effect applies to Flush and Straight to the same degree, it doesn't boost the odds of a Straight any more than it boosts the odds of a Flush. Extra cards means extra chances to make your hand; but making a Flush is still harder than making a Straight.

The first table on this site gives the odds of making each 5-card hand out of 8 cards: https://www.durangobill.com/Poker_Probabilities_8_Cards.html

Hand ranks are exactly as they would be for any other variant of poker. The ranking doesn't change with more cards.

That it's draw poker ultimately just means more cards. (Re-drawing up to five cards essentially just means you have up to 13 to work with, instead of 8.) Hand ranks won't change; higher ranking hands will still be less likely than lower-ranking hands.
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