Planet cards

[TowerWizard]

The way it works now is that bad hands (hight cards, one pair) have a low initial chips/mult while harder to get hands have a higher initial chips/mult. Then you get planet cards that enhance the hands, but bad hands get boosted only slighty by their planet cards, meaning they are still bad hands, while already good hands get boosted more, to make them even better.

The upshot is that Pluto should never be chosen from a pack, or bought from the display, because it gives the worst bonus to the worst hand, while you are tempted to boost the intermediary hands (flush, straight) by planet cards, since they have a large chance to be played, and the boost from the planet card is decent.

My point is, why not have all planet cards give the same bonus irrespective of the initial strenght of the hand? That way even Pluto might be worth picking?

[malogoss]

The whole point of the hands value and scaling (planets) is that you want to build a deck that makes it possible to play stronger hands constantly, but getting there is tricky. That way there's a game to play and decisions to make.

[TowerWizard]

Escrito originalmente por malogoss:

The whole point of the hands value and scaling (planets) is that you want to build a deck that makes it possible to play stronger hands constantly, but getting there is tricky. That way there's a game to play and decisions to make.

But this means that Pluto (boosting the "High Card" hand) is a worthless card. Would it not be better, and generate more choices, if the initially bad hands would scale better with planet cards, meaning that you actually would need to choose between a bonus to a worse hand but which is easier to get, or a bonus to a better hand that is harder to get? If the bonuses themselves are also scaling (as it is now) then there is no point in boosting worse hands and this choice disappears, because even with the boost, that hand is still worse than a better unboosted hand.

Even if I got Pluto for free into my consumabe slot (from the card that gives you two random planet cards) it is better to sell it for 1 dollar, than to enhance the "high card" hand.

[Goblin]

"More choices to make" isn't always a good thing. If you add more viable choices, at some point everything is viable and there's zero strategy or challenge left. Buffing bad hands is something you do if you get no good hands in your pack, or if you need it to scrape by through a round or two while building out your deck/jokers further. You should never be aiming for a high card build, because there's zero strategy involved with just rerolling for as many 10/face cards as you have hands to play. You want to reward people for making difficult hands. Especially in the full game where you're not limited to 5 antes, having higher scaling on low effort hands would mean they're 100% the best hands in the long run.

Also, it makes you think about one other aspect: played hand maximising. If you have some joker like Bus, where each hand played adds to a counter, but also have Telescope you will want to think about what hands you play instead of just spamming high card so you can still have your scoring hand as most played. High Card being good would once again remove all strategy there - "just spam high card lol you will win" basically.

[malogoss]

Escrito originalmente por TowerWizard:

But this means that Pluto (boosting the "High Card" hand) is a worthless card.

No, it's not. A boost on any specific hand is worth something in the right context. A boost on the same hand is often worth nothing in another context.

Would it not be better, and generate more choices, if the initially bad hands would scale better with planet cards, meaning that you actually would need to choose between a bonus to a worse hand but which is easier to get, or a bonus to a better hand that is harder to get?

It would be plain bad. If any hand scales as fast as the other hand, then after 3-4 levels gained all hands would have pretty much equal default payout. So no benefit to go for tough hands and risk anything. Read my previous post.

If the bonuses themselves are also scaling (as it is now) then there is no point in boosting worse hands and this choice disappears, because even with the boost, that hand is still worse than a better unboosted hand.

It's all a matter of context. For some reason I ignore, you believe that high card hands can't win you the game, no matter what. I suggest you to go to Youtube, search for "balatro high card" and see how wrong you are in believing that.

Even if I got Pluto for free into my consumabe slot (from the card that gives you two random planet cards) it is better to sell it for 1 dollar, than to enhance the "high card" hand.

In some cases yes. The same way selling the straight flush planet is often a good decision, nothing wrong with that. The same way most random planet cards obtained are better being sold in most scenarios. Money is very important in this game. I do agree.

[TowerWizard]

@malogoss
I understand better now. I will watch that video. I am pretty sure the joker that brings in every card to score is used, and probably the the joker that gives mult per number times you have scored that hand. I am guessing no joker directly buffs "high card" because that would go against what you outline in your answers. Are you saing it is not just a fluke that you can win on a high card strategy? Not a "the stars a right" type of scenario?

Escrito originalmente por Goblin:

Buffing bad hands is something you do if you get no good hands in your pack, or if you need it to scrape by through a round or two while building out your deck/jokers further.

Since you always get at least three planets in a pack, I fail to see how I would pick "high card" instead of "pair", which is the least bad hand, and every other hand is more viable than both of them, unless you have the "score all cards" joker. But I will watch the video that malogoss suggested.

Thanks for replying, both of you.

[Goblin]

Escrito originalmente por TowerWizard:

Since you always get at least three planets in a pack, I fail to see how I would pick "high card" instead of "pair", which is the least bad hand, and every other hand is more viable than both of them, unless you have the "score all cards" joker. But I will watch the video that malogoss suggested.

Let's say you get straight flush, four of a kind, and high card. You have a flush house build. You're more likely to play some high cards than the other two, so you pick the one that maximises your per-round score.
Sure, pair may be better (depending on how many high card planets you already got), but you aren't guaranteed to get a planet card for it. And with Flush House you may want to keep most of your pairs anyway to use in the flush house. On any kind of Straight build you'd play pairs more likely. So really it all depends.

[TowerWizard]

Yep, the fist joker he found was Splash (every card is scored). So, yes, with that specific joker, Pluto and other planets become better, but that joker is required, I think, and it is random.

Haha, and Ride the bus in the Abandoned deck, too, and a Pluto in the first planet pack... Yeah, I think it is safe to say that he needed very specific circumstances to pull the high card win off. And the Stencil joker... My god, what luck.

My first win was also with Ride the bus and Stencil Joker with a flush deck, built from the Abandoned deck, which seems just too good, especially in combination with Ride the bus. i don't think Ride the bus should be allowed with the Abandoned deck, since it has no chance to fail (unless you are stupid and add face cards to it).

[malogoss]

Escrito originalmente por TowerWizard:

Yep, the fist joker he found was Splash (every card is scored). So, yes, with that specific joker, Pluto and other planets become better, but that joker is required, I think, and it is random.

Haha, and Ride the bus in the Abandoned deck, too, and a Pluto in the first planet pack... Yeah, I think it is safe to say that he needed very specific circumstances to pull the high card win off. And the Stencil joker... My god, what luck.

My first win was also with Ride the bus and Stencil Joker with a flush deck, built from the Abandoned deck, which seems just too good, especially in combination with Ride the bus. i don't think Ride the bus should be allowed with the Abandoned deck, since it has no chance to fail (unless you are stupid and add face cards to it).

Splash and Ride the Bus are common jokers. I'm not keeping stats but I have played a lot of games. The odds that a specific common joker is offered to you during a full run has to be over 80%, if you buy only half a dozen rerolls.

Stencil is a rare joker. You can't rely on a rare joker appearing in a run. I'd say you'll see 1, sometimes 2 rare jokers per run on average. But with 4 rare jokers in the pool, yes it is lucky to get specifically Stencil. For example, Smeared Joker is also a rare, it's very good, but it is useless in a high card build.

Only 9 planets in the card pool, unless you have played a secret hand (that adds cards to the pool). So getting a specific planet is not that hard. And I doubt getting it in the first or second pack changes anything. The biggest factor is probably how early you're offered a Telescope voucher.

So those 3 jokers and Pluto is not the ultimate luck bundle. Stencil is the lucky piece. The rest you can pretty much count on.

Things like Steel cards and stone cards are also great in a high card build. They are not that hard to get.

Whatever hand type you go for, you need some ingredients to make it work. But you don't need all the best ingredients. Yes luck plays a role, but if you accept that there are 11 possible hands and that you can probably try any of those 11, even the toughest ones, at least once every 4 run, luck really isn't a huge factor.

[TowerWizard]

Stone cards are another key to the high card build, since they increase the value of the one card you can play. I kind of forgot about them, since they are normally useless to me. (I am also annoyed that they get to be played next to other cards, without the Splash joker, and without this being stated on the stone card, because at first I though of them as very bad, since they had to be played in isolation to be used, but that is not how they work, and this is not stated anywhere.)

[malogoss]

After reading the OP, I have since tried 2 runs in total. My goal was simply to beat the game with a high card build. I was not willing to force the build though. In other words, I valued winning more than picking any build but if I had the opportunity to do good AND use a high card build, that was the plan.

First run, still at ante 1, I see a spectral pack in shop. I buy it, now I have 11-12 9's in my deck. So I go for 5 of a kind and I win the run.

Second run, I buy the simple +4 mult joker and a golden joker very early. Then the plan is to go for high card. As a backup plan I have the 3 of a kind option, as I buy the corresponding planet when I don't see Pluto. I also have the +15 mult if 3 or less cards are played joker, which is good for both hands.

I start collecting steel cards, stone cards, gold cards. My economy is crazy. At the final boss, my high card hands were doing > 25k damage each.

2 runs is a very small sample, I know that. But there's a wide variety of things that can help a high card build, it was simple to play. Ending a fight with 4 steel cards and a gold card in hand is pretty fun :)