I am g... (KIAN BOOK 5 SPOILERS)

[SwobyJ]

"I am gay." -Kian

I know much of TLJ dialogue is anachronistic, but this felt especially jarring. I'm gay myself, and the term has such a particular history of its usage that this therefore felt like a game made by particularly straight people who do not respect it in the same way that I might hope others would. 'I'm Gay' is a political-cultural word definition to oppose the oppression of shame onto homosexuality and open homosexuals. "I'm not ill, or evil, or dangerous - I'm gay about how I love and you can't stop me from loving" is often the strong implication. I don't understand at all why any Azadi would use that word, at least by how Kian described his homosexual relations that far. "I don't enjoy women/I enjoy men" would be much more appropriate dialogue, given what Kian lived in, what his personal expectations and goals are, and how he's speaking with Crow.

This is one of the cases - of a bunch of them really - where TLJ seems to sacrifice immersion and quality for socio-political messaging. Messaging that so far I think I personally completely agree with, but messaging that I've come to feel more annoyed by than anything of the sort from any other game (even Bioware had much more tact).

It doesn't subtract a lot from the game but it does take me out of the moment and I know I didn't enjoy the subsequent scene as much I could have. And no, I wouldn't be reacting this way if this took place with a Stark character in Stark (though that far in the future, I'd still have a little questioning why the word is still used, but at least it wouldn't be jarring). Its just that Arcadia seemed to give zero indication that this would even be a word used for there.


Oh and on a related note, the bit where I was directly presented the 'kiss the girl or not' stuff A SECOND TIME seemed tonedeaf and in some ways more offensive than simply having Kian straight. Please stop trying to have your cake and eat it too. A gay man who is confident in it, will almost never romantically(-ish) kiss a woman just to make the woman feel a little better about themselves. This sooo looked like a case of trying to be socially progressive while not letting go of the Straight Romance 'Option'. I got it the first time. The second time, started feeling obnoxious. All in all, Kian felt inconsistent and uniquely strangely pandering, instead of just.. good and gay ('gay'). Good thing I liked his voice acting and his more general concept and arc!

I don't want to dissuade game developers from at least occasionally presenting homosexual/gay protagonists. I want it. Not exactly all the time. But at least 1/10+ games! But I still will not just allow what I consider to be flaws to go on by be just because I'm seeing admirable progressive attempts. I think you can do better RTG. Take both the bad and good implications of that statement.

[The Piper [O5]]

Originally posted by SwobyJ:

"I am gay." -Kian
Oh and on a related note, the bit where I was directly presented the 'kiss the girl or not' stuff A SECOND TIME seemed tonedeaf and in some ways more offensive than simply having Kian straight. Please stop trying to have your cake and eat it too. A gay man who is confident in it, will almost never romantically(-ish) kiss a woman just to make the woman feel a little better about themselves. This sooo looked like a case of trying to be socially progressive while not letting go of the Straight Romance 'Option'. I got it the first time. The second time, started feeling obnoxious. All in all, Kian felt inconsistent and uniquely strangely pandering, instead of just.. good and gay ('gay'). Good thing I liked his voice acting and his more general concept and arc!

If you attempt to Kiss the girl a second time ... the game will give you an achievement:
World's Greatest Kisser?
Biggest. D o u c h e b a g. Ever.

[Yuu]

Hm, remember he didnt really use that word, its just a "translation" we see, they don't really speak english there.

[Daveed93]

Ok, but consider this: Kian doesn't speak English. It's the magic that makes that everyone can understand each other. You can see this in The longest Journey and in Book 5 when the engineer comes for a moment to Stark. So what you hear is just the word that is familiar to you, not an official word for 'gay' in Arcadia.

Edit: Ah well, you were first, Yuu :P

[SwobyJ]

Originally posted by The Piper O5:

Originally posted by SwobyJ:

"I am gay." -Kian
Oh and on a related note, the bit where I was directly presented the 'kiss the girl or not' stuff A SECOND TIME seemed tonedeaf and in some ways more offensive than simply having Kian straight. Please stop trying to have your cake and eat it too. A gay man who is confident in it, will almost never romantically(-ish) kiss a woman just to make the woman feel a little better about themselves. This sooo looked like a case of trying to be socially progressive while not letting go of the Straight Romance 'Option'. I got it the first time. The second time, started feeling obnoxious. All in all, Kian felt inconsistent and uniquely strangely pandering, instead of just.. good and gay ('gay'). Good thing I liked his voice acting and his more general concept and arc!

If you attempt to Kiss the girl a second time ... the game will give you an achievement:
World's Greatest Kisser?
Biggest. D o u c h e b a g. Ever.

I have kissed women but it was always attempted to be made completely clear that it was for enjoyment of the humor (or at least basic sensation) of it all, not done without the necessary communication needed to not lead her on.

Yeah this feels icky.

[SwobyJ]

Originally posted by Daveed93:

Ok, but consider this: Kian doesn't speak English. It's the magic that makes that everyone can understand each other. You can see this in The longest Journey and in Book 5 when the engineer comes for a moment to Stark. So what you hear is just the word that is familiar to you, not an official word for 'gay' in Arcadia.

Edit: Ah well, you were first, Yuu :P

If this is true, then my protest significantly lessens. However, now I'm at least curious about what word 'gay' translates into -_-. Or maybe its not even specific words.

I have not completed TLJ so I didn't know that, and I'm not done Book 5 in DFC either.

[chuck]

Kian is definitely flustered and irritated with Crow at that moment so he's uncharacteristically curt and rough.

[Sen]

As much as I love the prospect of Kian being gay, I felt like it was tagged on at the end as an afterthought. In TLJ, Kian had no discernable personality whatsoever and I really didn't care for the Arcadia storyline because of that. Maybe they wanted to add something to the blandness of Kian?

In Chapters they improved a lot of character building with Kian though he still felt a little stale at times. The relationship dynamic with Likho is what really made me like him but I don't understand the whole kissing Anna thing. Not to say that 2 people who happened to be gay should automatically end up together but wouldn't it make more sense for him to kiss Likho? I mean he is "gay" right? Honestly, this story needs more "gay" than randomly kissing women you aren't attracted to. Though I feel like two men kissing in a game is sadly too much for some people to take despite there seemingly being no uproar about Hanna's kiss with her girlfriend.

And with the usage of the word "gay", it was fairly jarring considering the social context. Tthe Azadi do see homosexuality as a legitimised relationship so I'm not sure if it's too farfetched for him to say "I'm gay". Maybe different wording would've fit the medival setting better?

[SwobyJ]

Originally posted by chuck:

Kian is definitely flustered and irritated with Crow at that moment so he's uncharacteristically curt and rough.

I'm aware he is being curt, but I'm not sure what that has to do with this occurring, or at least my argument about it.

[SwobyJ]

Originally posted by antokki:

As much as I love the prospect of Kian being gay, I felt like it was tagged on at the end as an afterthought. In TLJ, Kian had no discernable personality whatsoever and I really didn't care for the Arcadia storyline because of that. Maybe they wanted to add something to the blandness of Kian?

In Chapters they improved a lot of character building with Kian though he still felt a little stale at times. The relationship dynamic with Likho is what really made me like him but I don't understand the whole kissing Anna thing. Not to say that 2 people who happened to be gay should automatically end up together but wouldn't it make more sense for him to kiss Likho? I mean he is "gay" right? Honestly, this story needs more "gay" than randomly kissing women you aren't attracted to. Though I feel like two men kissing in a game is sadly too much for some people to take despite there seemingly being no uproar about Hanna's kiss with her girlfriend.

And with the usage of the word "gay", it was fairly jarring considering the social context. Tthe Azadi do see homosexuality as a legitimised relationship so I'm not sure if it's too farfetched for him to say "I'm gay". Maybe different wording would've fit the medival setting better?

The gayness of Kian comes across like it was slapped on over an initial design of the game, instead of seamlessly integrated.

I do like the majority of the changes they made to him though. I can see the effort. And I like him more this time (though I personally value the one-note-ness of him in Dreamfall because I saw a foundation for future growth that Chapters often delivered).

And yes. My issue is not with him being homosexual or remarking to Crow that he is, but specifically that he blurted out that he's "gay". Another jarringly annoying thing was an earlier NPC using the word "racist".

Can anyone tell me if maybe them using these words in Chapters/Book 5 is because the worlds are merging? I'm not done Book 5 yet. If merging affects things even down to how persons express themselves, then I'm a-okay with such a nuance!

Chapters did come across like it wanted to be inclusive while not wanting to offend too many customers at the same time. Yes, show the ♥♥♥♥ women kiss (we know how especially male games are not nearly as offended by this), show awkward hetero kisses, but two men? It is still apparently, or at least possibly here, of particular stigma. One could call me oversensitive, but really this is something gay men go through their lives on alert about and cautious that when it comes down to it, the 'world is against us' (emotional reaction at least). I am not surprised in the least at any video game that does all sorts of pro-gay content... except any kiss (or at least focus on it).

[Red Thread Games]

Originally posted by SwobyJ:

Chapters did come across like it wanted to be inclusive while not wanting to offend too many customers at the same time. Yes, show the ♥♥♥♥ women kiss (we know how especially male games are not nearly as offended by this), show awkward hetero kisses, but two men? It is still apparently, or at least possibly here, of particular stigma. One could call me oversensitive, but really this is something gay men go through their lives on alert about and cautious that when it comes down to it, the 'world is against us' (emotional reaction at least). I am not surprised in the least at any video game that does all sorts of pro-gay content... except any kiss (or at least focus on it).

We really appreciate this dialogue and we accept the feedback and criticisms!

Rest assured that we have absolutely no qualms about showing men kissing, and there's no stigma or censorship going on — there was just never an opportunity for Kian to kiss anyone else. (His potential relationship with Likho is more brotherly than romantic.) In retrospect, it would have been better to establish his sexuality with more than just words, of course, though that would have required a new character to be introduced…

Also, Kian's sexual orientation wasn't shoehorned onto the plot — it was always a part of his character — but we see how it might feel that way to some of you.

As for kissing Anna, this was supposed to be more about how Kian is awkward in his interactions with her (and other people) and not knowing how to react or how to behave. Kissing her is a douchebag action ("I'll grant her this one last thing!") and the 'achievement' reflects this. It was never an attempt on our part to appease the anti-gay brigade. We could care less about offending people who don't recognise basic human rights.

Great discussion, though, and we're definitely listening!

[Darq]

Originally posted by The Piper O5:

Originally posted by SwobyJ:

"I am gay." -Kian
Oh and on a related note, the bit where I was directly presented the 'kiss the girl or not' stuff A SECOND TIME seemed tonedeaf and in some ways more offensive than simply having Kian straight. Please stop trying to have your cake and eat it too. A gay man who is confident in it, will almost never romantically(-ish) kiss a woman just to make the woman feel a little better about themselves. This sooo looked like a case of trying to be socially progressive while not letting go of the Straight Romance 'Option'. I got it the first time. The second time, started feeling obnoxious. All in all, Kian felt inconsistent and uniquely strangely pandering, instead of just.. good and gay ('gay'). Good thing I liked his voice acting and his more general concept and arc!

If you attempt to Kiss the girl a second time ... the game will give you an achievement:
World's Greatest Kisser?
Biggest. D o u c h e b a g. Ever.

And proud of it. So explain that logic to me.
OP says " I'm gay about how I love and you can't stop me from loving""
So you want to do something lovely by kissing the red haired girl (the 2nd time) and now "I'm" a douche? Whatever a man does it's always wrong. Or, why do I always meet the crazy/frigid ones? Typical female hipocricy. But once you're through the ice they can't stop and then you're a douche for not trying to "love" her day and night every day 24/7/365. That spin was probably a woman's idea.

[SwobyJ]

@RTG - Thanks for the response. I can see what you mean about all of this, and your art is your art. All of your reasons are mindful.

However, it is just just how it looked to me and likely many others, especially with a multi-media view on these issues. I can't speak for most/all. It seems to be more the norm to not just let more central gay male characters to 'be gay and stay there'. No they must kiss a women at some point, etc etc. No their relationship with that man must be just 'friendly close like brothers', etc etc. If you take some time investigating, you may find these are tropes that are not so appreciated by gay people themselves, as they *appear* to *possibly* (at least when done in a series) stem from an unwillingness, consciously or not, to not really go as far with gay characters as it would otherwise be with straight ones.

Alternatively, sure, the things themselves could be considered to be revealing of a complexity of gay identity. Cool. But the tropes are tropes, and can be annoying for good reasons. In this case, it can more simplistically be considered to be a whole bunch of 'bait' without resolutions, while a more basic straight romance character (or increasingly even lesbian romance) plot would have much more likely gotten their damn clear romantic plot.

[SwobyJ]

Originally posted by Beans:

Originally posted by The Piper O5:

If you attempt to Kiss the girl a second time ... the game will give you an achievement:
World's Greatest Kisser?
Biggest. D o u c h e b a g. Ever.

And proud of it. So explain that logic to me.
OP says " I'm gay about how I love and you can't stop me from loving""
So you want to do something lovely by kissing the red haired girl (the 2nd time) and now "I'm" a douche? Whatever a man does it's always wrong. Or, why do I always meet the crazy/frigid ones? Typical female hipocricy. But once you're through the ice they can't stop and then you're a douche for not trying to "love" her day and night every day 24/7/365. That spin was probably a woman's idea.

I don't even understand what you're saying, and it isn't because of the censor.

[Peelsepuuppi]

That's the big difference In what Bioware does to what TLJ has done. In Bioware the "inclusiveness" feels natural, like it's part of it. It doesn't have a specific message it's just there.
When Mass Effect and and Dragon Age both get more options later in the game. It feels like the games just naturally gets more of what is already part of it with better variety of choices.

When the longest journey series does it, It doesn't always feel natural at all. It almost always feels preachy and that it's there just to tell a message. It's too much in your face, instead of just being naturally in the story.

[SwobyJ]

Originally posted by ToveriJuri:

That's the big difference In what Bioware does to what TLJ has done. In Bioware the "inclusiveness" feels natural, like it's part of it. It doesn't have a specific message it's just there.
When Mass Effect and and Dragon Age both get more options later in the game. It feels like the games just naturally gets more of what is already part of it with better variety of choices.

When the longest journey series does it, It doesn't always feel natural at all. It almost always feels preachy and that it's there just to tell a message. It's too much in your face, instead of just being naturally in the story.

And hey, I would take preachy stuff within realistically preachy contexts too.