Is it just me, or are lizardmen extremly strong?

[Masterhummel]

I mean, sure 1AG sucks hard but Skniks pretty much save the day. I've started to just concede most matches against lizards depending on the team i'm playing.

[Sedatus]

Playing Chaos, my tactic is to score early and then focus on murdering all their Skinks. They can't score without them and they're so easy to injure.

[Dode]

I believe that's the other way around: the tiers are design goals for each race rather than being assigned post-analysis. Subsequent analysis has failed to show any of the races fall outside the tiers as defined here: http://www.talkfantasyfootball.org/viewtopic.php?p=482918#p482918 (requires registration).

And before anyone turns up with a statistic showing that Wood Elves or Chaos Dwarves performed outside those tiers in their league I have two words: inferential statistics. If you don't know what that means then look it up alongside confidence interval and sample size.

When you actually analyse the teams they can't be said to perform outside their assigned tiers, but that does not mean they are all equal within a tier. A recent analysis of NAF tournament data was carried out and found that the teams could be split into 5 tiers quite reasonably (more on that here), for example. That's specific to the tournament format, though, so can't be said to carry over into MM and leagues.

So yes, Lizards are a tier 1 team as per the BBRC's definitions, but in certain formats they appear to be a top tier 1 team and performed slightly better than some other tier 1 teams.

Oh, and Khorne are firmly T1.5 both by design goal and in performance in leagues and MM. No idea about Brets.

[The Hat]

Początkowo opublikowane przez zyn:

Re-read what I wrote. I did at no point state they are _not_ a tier 1 team. Stop trying to put words into my mouth. I very specifically said they _do not_ get comparatively weaker at higher TVs, which is something you DID say.

Lizardmen at higher TV perform better than Lizardmen at low TV. There's really nothing to argue here, as it's not subjective.

I wasn't putting words in your mouth I was summarizing my viewpoint.

You are just plain wrong then, mutations can give steadily increasing powercreep and an expanded pool of options in their playstyle over any non mutation teams at higher TV. Obviously there is so many teams this statement by itself is incorrect, but in regards to lizards its not. As your strength is in your dodge and strength to hold up players, the running and positional game, which gets more specialised as time goes on, but doesn't see such an increase, or such versatility that other teams get to react to situations on the pitch for example.

To your TV point specifically - Best data I can find that is recent is

http://www.cmanu.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/bb/stats/stats.html

58.39 Rate
Lizard TV 0- 1.3k

40.63 Win Rate
Lizard TV 2k-2.5k

Small pool sadly.

Some further reading, for the OMG lizards are overpowered crowd.

Lizards are rated about 3rd here overall.
http://naf.talkfantasyfootball.org/location/north_america.html

http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/LRB5Stats.htm
Ranked at a 51%-53% win rate, can't break it down sadly, ranked 11th, with some old rules teams.

Before the obvious reply - NB I know doubles etc can change any team composition but we are talking about the mean average here.

[Zourin]

Starter Lizardmen are cripples until they suffer a few levels, because Sarus are unskilled at anything other than 2nd dice, and Skinks have to roll doubles for ball-handling skills if they survive to level up.

Consider a 6/4/1 Lizardman team as being a man short out of the gate. Few players can capitalize on the skinks' maneuverability at lower levels. 1:1 marking of saurus', while bad for brawling them, is a massive waste of their strengths. All other teams start with functional specialists like Block, Fend, and Dauntless, which cause no end of frustration with Lizardman heavy units. Skinks only get Dodge and the ability to ingore stacked tackle zone penalties, and subpar AGI for a 2 strength unit with no ball skills.

Dwarves, Brits, and Chaos are the toughest matchups, because their more even spread of skills and brawliness will ensure that the skink achilles heel can be severed with only a passing grace of Nuffle, and that Lizardmen heavy units are either wasted in 1:1 markings, or blowing rerolls on premature double-downs in the block dice, or blowing rerolls in picking up the ball, or blowing rerolls in botched dodges, or blowing rerolls in botched quick-passes. EVERY dice a lizardman throws is an unmitigated risk for a premature turnover.

A Lizardman owner that has to conserve rerolls for ball handling will mean even more units that can simply walk by Saurus that knock themselves over.

[Kayeka]

Lizardmen are pretty boss, but their Sauri can be tied up easily, their skinks are very vulnerable to injuries and the general lack of skills means they are very likely to eat rerolls like candy. Also, even though Skinks are the only people on the team that can handle the ball, they are not actually any good at it. They have no sure hands, and no skill access other than agility. The Sauri got good skill access, but they are very unlikely to score and will generally only gain SPP from casualties.

You need to adjust your game in order to properly deal with all the STR4, but they are not unbeatable.

[TheStratovarian]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Zourin:

Starter Lizardmen are cripples until they suffer a few levels, because Sarus are unskilled at anything other than 2nd dice, and Skinks have to roll doubles for ball-handling skills if they survive to level up.

Consider a 6/4/1 Lizardman team as being a man short out of the gate. Few players can capitalize on the skinks' maneuverability at lower levels. 1:1 marking of saurus', while bad for brawling them, is a massive waste of their strengths. All other teams start with functional specialists like Block, Fend, and Dauntless, which cause no end of frustration with Lizardman heavy units. Skinks only get Dodge and the ability to ingore stacked tackle zone penalties, and subpar AGI for a 2 strength unit with no ball skills.

Dwarves, Brits, and Chaos are the toughest matchups, because their more even spread of skills and brawliness will ensure that the skink achilles heel can be severed with only a passing grace of Nuffle, and that Lizardmen heavy units are either wasted in 1:1 markings, or blowing rerolls on premature double-downs in the block dice, or blowing rerolls in picking up the ball, or blowing rerolls in botched dodges, or blowing rerolls in botched quick-passes. EVERY dice a lizardman throws is an unmitigated risk for a premature turnover.

A Lizardman owner that has to conserve rerolls for ball handling will mean even more units that can simply walk by Saurus that knock themselves over.

Thank you! I was hoping someone would see this put out there. Most teams at certain values really suffer against others, and with the lizards, you have to play a defensive game with careful choice of your blocks, and trust to nuffle. (as scary as that sounds.)

[2LambBuna]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Masterhummel:

I mean, sure 1AG sucks hard but Skniks pretty much save the day. I've started to just concede most matches against lizards depending on the team i'm playing.

its just you

[2LambBuna]

Początkowo opublikowane przez The Hat:

Początkowo opublikowane przez zyn:

Re-read what I wrote. I did at no point state they are _not_ a tier 1 team. Stop trying to put words into my mouth. I very specifically said they _do not_ get comparatively weaker at higher TVs, which is something you DID say.

Lizardmen at higher TV perform better than Lizardmen at low TV. There's really nothing to argue here, as it's not subjective.

I wasn't putting words in your mouth I was summarizing my viewpoint.

You are just plain wrong then, mutations can give steadily increasing powercreep and an expanded pool of options in their playstyle over any non mutation teams at higher TV. Obviously there is so many teams this statement by itself is incorrect, but in regards to lizards its not. As your strength is in your dodge and strength to hold up players, the running and positional game, which gets more specialised as time goes on, but doesn't see such an increase, or such versatility that other teams get to react to situations on the pitch for example.

To your TV point specifically - Best data I can find that is recent is

http://www.cmanu.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/bb/stats/stats.html

58.39 Rate
Lizard TV 0- 1.3k

40.63 Win Rate
Lizard TV 2k-2.5k

Small pool sadly.

Some further reading, for the OMG lizards are overpowered crowd.

Lizards are rated about 3rd here overall.
http://naf.talkfantasyfootball.org/location/north_america.html

http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/LRB5Stats.htm
Ranked at a 51%-53% win rate, can't break it down sadly, ranked 11th, with some old rules teams.

Before the obvious reply - NB I know doubles etc can change any team composition but we are talking about the mean average here.

should be noted that the weaker teams, which will have contributed to them stats like halflings and goblins are not in BB2. so you can knock them win rates down a bit.

[Dode]

58.39 Rate
Lizard TV 0- 1.3k

40.63 Win Rate
Lizard TV 2k-2.5k

Small pool sadly.

The small sample is exactly the reason you can't extrapolate that sample into inferences about the population to be able to say they are different.