Here's why people bash.

[triariici]

It's simple

1. bashing leads to more spp

2. even if you only get them to conceed half the time, you are making more money than winning half the time

3. Less skill required.

4. watching things break is fun.

Unless there is a greater reward for winning the match, you are just gonna see the same bashy teams getting spp and that getting compounded by auto conceeds (because even winning against these teams isn't always worth it) which in turn leads to more bash.

bashing is all fine and dandy, sometimes i like to bash, but yesterday I played a Dark Elf vs. Skaven match up (tie 2-2) and it was really fun just to play something other than "slow down the cage and wait."

Right now the incentive to win is acutally less than to beat the other team into conceeding for spp, double MVP, and both prize pools. or you can win and get, not nearly as much.

[Dode]

Originally posted by triariici:

Right now the incentive to win is acutally less than to beat the other team into conceeding for spp, double MVP, and both prize pools. or you can win and get, not nearly as much.

Yep, the problem is the open ladder environment. You don't see this in competitive leagues and tournaments.

[triariici]

Have any advice on a leauge to play in (preferably not new teams only) where I can go for some sane play? really looking for something more blood bowl and less streetfighter warhammer edition.

[Kanjejou]

the problem is that team that dont punch are susually super weak in armor and get whipped out in 3-4 turn 8 if they play super safe. then punch team can touch down all they want.
take vicious player and uberpunch and you will put stuff out of the field very very fast.
and they gain more exp.

if simple punching was giving exp and wounding less common ball playing team woulnt be so few.

and in the long tearm in a league, ball playing team are ♥♥♥♥ ... ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥!!! they cant be helped by allies with stuff like guard they cant do decent move (short pass and ♥♥♥♥ whithout ending around 50% or 67%chance failling, then ball can get stopped during the pass.

they need massiv amount of reroll because of how bad the pass game is.

Just got whipped as skaven by bretonia. avoided contact as much as possible still at the end of first half i had no player left.

simply put he erased the 3 player you HAVE to put on the LOS then blitzed opne guy per turn adn removed all of them of the game thx to uber punch(+1to damage when you succes a block) skill.

want less killer team simply remove the killer perk.

Played saurien with uberpucnh whipped out the floor with chaos blood this skill is just too good.

[Dode]

Originally posted by triariici:

Have any advice on a leauge to play in (preferably not new teams only) where I can go for some sane play? really looking for something more blood bowl and less streetfighter warhammer edition.

No idea if there are any BB2 leagues atm since most of the established leagues are sticking with BB1 until BB2 is worthwhile.

[triariici]

Originally posted by Kanjejou:

the problem is that team that dont punch are susually super weak in armor and get whipped out in 3-4 turn 8 if they play super safe. then punch team can touch doanw all they want.

Thats just bad coaching, if you're preventing the cage right then they are only getting 1 blitz a turn. I play mainly DE and to this point have only had 1 player die in 17 games, in the official open ladder, thats 7 games against chaos teams. a squishy team can make it through the game just gotta play smart

[triariici]

Originally posted by Dode:

Originally posted by triariici:

Have any advice on a leauge to play in (preferably not new teams only) where I can go for some sane play? really looking for something more blood bowl and less streetfighter warhammer edition.

No idea if there are any BB2 leagues atm since most of the established leagues are sticking with BB1 until BB2 is worthwhile.

you're breaking my heart lol.

[Kanjejou]

Originally posted by triariici:

Originally posted by Kanjejou:

the problem is that team that dont punch are susually super weak in armor and get whipped out in 3-4 turn 8 if they play super safe. then punch team can touch doanw all they want.

Thats just bad coaching, if you're preventing the cage right then they are only getting 1 blitz a turn. I play mainly DE and to this point have only had 1 player die in 17 games, in the official open ladder, thats 7 games against chaos teams. a squishy team can make it through the game just gotta play smart

except if everyblitz you take remove a player(easy with 2 dice) first turn he/I remove 3 player , because of three mandatory first line then remove(stun/KO) a player each turn add a vicious quaterman and easy slaughter, done whipped out in 8 turn, 8+3=11. Second half he player 6vs11 i punched him even harder killed the 6 guys and 3 chaos warrior and put 3 touch down.

I dont say its not bad luck but the punch(+1 to wound) skill trully flaw the equation, since it allow you to trully put ennemies out of commisions way too easily, even the big armor ones.

that punch skill allow more stun and KO already make it a super powerfull skill, dont need to make it a kill maim burn+sp generation skill too.

this problem also appear in tabletop game with old player rarely playing the balls and punching new player most fo the time. Because statisticaly it win the games more than pass run and grab the ball, and if you play league it sbest to farm sp early to get good skill to win more sp its a vicious circle and a hard one to break.

[Daniel]

So, I'm not sure the math on this is correct, but I did a bit of calculating and checked how much SPP to expect from bashing:

Since we're talking higher TV, I assumed the players will have Block, Claw (AV7), Mighty Blow, Piling On, Tackle (attacker) and Block, Dodge (Defender). I also assumed the attacked had a reroll available for each block and was wiling to use it to get towards injury.

24.9% - 2d RR,MB,PO,Tackle
16.1% - 2d RR,MB,PO
11.5% - 2d RR,MB,Tackle
13.5% - 2d RR,PO,Tackle
5.1% - 2d RR,MB
3.6% - 2d RR

Assuming positioning, number or strength advantage is really skewed, for 3d blocks:
28.3% - 3d RR,MB,PO,Tackle
20.6% - 3d RR,MB,PO
13.1% - 3d RR,MB,Tackle
15.3% - 3d RR,PO,Tackle
9.5% - 3d RR,MB
4.6% - 3d RR

The proper counter to Piling On (PO) is of course to get Fend. All calculations assume the attacker has Claw or the defender has AV7.

So, it's 11.5% chance to get an injury against a fully developed team (that has Fend), or 13.1%.

A proper elven team can typically score with 1 pickup (82%), a 1 die block (for push: 66.7%), a dodge (82%), and next turn dodge into one tackle zone (67%), dodge (82%), pass (82%), catch (82%). Even without any automatic or actual rerolls this bad two turn touch down scene has a chance of 17.9% of working - netting a total of 4 spp.

The thing is: the game has 32 turns. And against a bashy player, that'll mean something like 16 + 6 or 9 blocks against your players. So yes, the expected result is something like two or three injured for SPP gain - it can be substantially worse odds if an early dodge nuffles you, though.

Somebody can perhaps check the math, but it seems to me as if it's not that easy to get SPP from bashing, unless you face a team that lacks essential defense skills.

[Breidr]

GOBBLN has just started it's first season in BB2. You can sign up with new teams next season in out Proving Ground for weekly scheduled play -- www.gobbln.com

[Q-T-S]

Im sorta sitting on the fence when it comes to this issue to be honest. As annoying as punch teams are, it is a legitmate strategy.At the moment im running a Lizardman team, which does require me to bash alot with my Saurus' in order to make holes for my skinks to run through to make plays, and it does end in alot of injuries and sometimes deaths for the other team. And honestly i dont see anything wrong with that at all. However when it comes to players that only go for frags (kills/injuries) and ignore the ball completely i just simply conceed i dont care if i give them 10spp i'd prefer an fun game over winning and at the moment i couldnt care less for rating or win/loss % until a legitamte BB2 league starts up.

[Dode]

I actually looked at SPP gain per race a long time ago. These were the results:
http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af259/dode74/FOLSPPGainByRaceEndS6.png

So no, bash teams do not gain more SPP than other teams on average.

[Flodge]

Originally posted by Dode:

I actually looked at SPP gain per race a long time ago. These were the results:
http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af259/dode74/FOLSPPGainByRaceEndS6.png

So no, bash teams do not gain more SPP than other teams on average.

More of those SPP survive til the next game though.

I'm guessing that graph is showing just gains and not taking into account lost SPP at the same time ie showing the overall net increase in SPPs.

f.e. If the skaven are losing an average of 3 SPP/game to -ST injuries or deaths, their actual SPP increase is only 6 SPP/game.

[Dode]

The chart shows cas against per game as well - the line. You can see it's fairly even across the board for the tier 1 teams. What it doesn't account for is how many of those cas per game are journeymen and rookies (which is a high proportion, particularly for the agi based teams, based on a similar analysis where I had that level of data for leagues), so no SPP are lost in those instances.

[Flodge]

Very true but as your graph already shows, the two highest SPP gaining teams have two of the highest CAS rates - it's difficult to imagine that this wouldn't lead to them also having the greatest SPP losses/game.

Journeymen/rookies still have a chance of being MVP and thus losing 5 SPPs straight away - ofc not forgetting the circumstances where you're forced to pass/score with one of them dictated by the state of play at the time.

idk if you have the data available or even if it can easily be extrapolated - but a graph showing SPP decreases would be more informative than just showing CAS. (If you can filted out -ST and death rolls)

[Dode]

I don't have that data for an open league available, hence I used cas. Like I said, similar data for a scheduled league where I do have that data suggests that the SPP losses per game are about even.