How do you fight claw Chaos as Orcs?

[Done25]

I'm up in the TV ratings where Claw Chaos reigns supreme. How do I fight these guys when my one advantage, high armor on most of my players, is no longer a factor and I lose my Troll/Black Orcs by a few turns in?

[Leinad]

Fend is your friend.

[Answulf]

The simple and easy way is to reduce your TV down to a lower level where Chaos doesn't have much claw.

If that's not what you want to do, good luck. You both have similar teams but all of your guys have AV7.

Tips on managing your TV:

Originally posted by Answulf:

Learning to manage your TV effectively is one of the steps in moving from new player to experienced. Both teams and individual players can suffer from what is called "TV Bloat" and it is different for every position and every team. Basically, each player has an optimal bang-for-your-buck TV cost, based on their position and your play style. After that, extra skills start giving you dimishing returns that help your opponent more than you.

Take a Black Orc Blocker for example:

Let's say that for the way you are designing your team, the optimal build on one is Block, Guard and MB. His optimal TV is 140. (80+20+20+20) When a Black Orc that already has those 3 skills levels up, he is starting to bloat (TV 160) and you should cut him from your team (or sell him in the marketplace), then start over with a new Black Orc. This is a hard concept for new players to swallow because they just want to level up their players as much as possible.

In a similar vein, a lot of players will cut a player who doesn't roll doubles on his first or second level-up. Big Guys are a good example of this - without block they can be extremely unreliable, so some coaches will cut them if they don't get doubles.

Skinks are another good example of players cut relatively quickly in their career - without General skills, they quickly run out of decent options.

For similar reasons, it is a good idea to cut any player that receives a permanent injury.

Linemen can cause bloat on expensive teams where you had to buy a bunch at first, but start purchasing more positional players later on.

Rerolls can also cause TV bloat. Early on at low TV, a low skill roster can benefit from a lot of rerolls. But once your players all start gaining a lot of skills and are more reliable, it might be prudent to cut a reroll from your roster.

Finally, keep in mind that the actual optimal TV for each player on your team is part common knowledge, part personal preference.

Of course, this is assuming you want to be very competitive. If the fun of skilling up your players is more important to you, get them all to legend and don't worry about it. But understand that the meta is completely broken at the extremely high TV that online open ladders are capable of, since the game wasn't designed for that.

[zyn]

Your AV _is_ a factor. Not all of the players on Chaos team will have Claw. Their beastmen will also have only 8 AV.

How you handle them will entirely depend on how you have built your team and how the opposing coach has built his. Can you leverage an advantageous blocking chain with Guard? Can you handle the ball better? There's dozens of factors to consider.

In general, you should be able to bully the Chaos player in the blocking game and outnumber him in the blocks thrown. If you have plenty of Mighty Blow, you might even come out ahead in Casualties simply because you should be able to throw that many more blocks. That is of course assuming you grabbed plenty of Guard on your way up.


I haven't played the 40 TV more expensive Orcs yet, but I had a good run in BB1 with some 35-9-4 stats (roughly, off the top of my head). I played against multiple Chaos/Nurgle teams at high levels. It's a cas-fest, but definitely not insurmountable unless you get _very_ unlucky early on. The tough Chaos teams had one thing in common, which was lacking a Minotaur. In TV-based matchmaking it seems it's like a newbie trap. If they do have a Mino, just put it on the ground and don't let him Blitz it up easily if possible. That way the Mino be useless most of the time, plus it's nice to lay the smack on that AV 8 with Mighty Blow.

[Dode]

Guard, guard and more guard. If at least 8 (ideally 9) of your players don't have it at high TV then you are screwed.

Oh, and some DP linemen to kick the ones who do pile on as well.

[zyn]

Originally posted by Answulf:

The simple and easy way is to reduce your TV down to a lower level where Chaos doesn't have much claw.

If that's not what you want to do, good luck. You both have similar teams but all of your guys have AV7.

Seriously? Why do you even bother replying if all you do is just instantly go into hyperbole-mode instead of giving out genuinely useful advice?

[Answulf]

Originally posted by zyn:

Originally posted by Answulf:

The simple and easy way is to reduce your TV down to a lower level where Chaos doesn't have much claw.

If that's not what you want to do, good luck. You both have similar teams but all of your guys have AV7.

Seriously? Why do you even bother replying if all you do is just instantly go into hyperbole-mode instead of giving out genuinely useful advice?

TV optimization is a very real strategy that many experienced coaches use. Different races peak at different TVs. If you want your team performing at maximum efficiency in a ladder where you are matched based on TV, you keep your TV within that range.

Remember - BB2 is not a new game. There have been online Blood Bowl ladders for over 10 years now.

[zyn]

Originally posted by Dode:

Oh, and some DP linemen to kick the ones who do pile on as well.

That's another brilliant tool I forgot to mention. You absolutely will want a DP lino. It's cheap as hell and has an excellent chance of removing a high value player with little risk. In the current metagame I would definitely add the free Bribe to my stadium and start using DP even in the first half of the game. Especially if there's a huge TV disparity between my DP player and the guy on the ground.

With decent gang fouling and a DP you'll have around 45-50% chance of removing the targeted player. It's definitely worth it on some ClawPOMB guy. There's not going to be more than a few of those in the team, unless he skimped out on a bunch of other useful skills. If he has multiples, then either you are playing at ridiculous TV (2.4k'ish) or he skipped on Guard. If it's the latter, the Orc team should definitely have the advantage.

[Done25]

Originally posted by Dode:

Guard, guard and more guard. If at least 8 (ideally 9) of your players don't have it at high TV then you are screwed.

Yea, I kind of get that feeling now.

Sadly my Guard using Blitzers got hurt and I had to hire two new ones.

[zyn]

Originally posted by Answulf:

TV optimization is a very real strategy that many experienced coaches use. Different races peak at different TVs. If you want your team performing at maximum efficiency in a ladder where you are matched based on TV, you keep your TV within that range.

Remember - BB2 is not a new game. There have been online Blood Bowl ladders for over 10 years now.

I was referring to the fact that you seem to insist that Claw is an inherent trait on every Chaos player. It is not. Every Claw is +20 TV and another skill was not taken in its place.

Of course TV optimization is a real way of adjusting to the metagame in order to get an edge over your opponent. But what you seemed to be implying is that there's no way of competing. And there definitely is, unless you start to go in the 2k+++ territory. Especially in BB2 where people definitely are not min/maxing properly in regards to their TV.

[Done25]

Originally posted by zyn:

Originally posted by Answulf:

TV optimization is a very real strategy that many experienced coaches use. Different races peak at different TVs. If you want your team performing at maximum efficiency in a ladder where you are matched based on TV, you keep your TV within that range.

Remember - BB2 is not a new game. There have been online Blood Bowl ladders for over 10 years now.

I was referring to the fact that you seem to insist that Claw is an inherent trait on every Chaos player. It is not. Every Claw is +20 TV and another skill was not taken in its place.

Of course TV optimization is a real way of adjusting to the metagame in order to get an edge over your opponent. But what you seemed to be implying is that there's no way of competing. And there definitely is, unless you start to go in the 2k+++ territory. Especially in BB2 where people definitely are not min/maxing properly in regards to their TV.

I'm in the 2k+ area sadly. XD

[zyn]

Originally posted by Done25:

I'm in the 2k+ area sadly. XD

Then try to trim some fat from your team. How much over 2k? Leader on thrower and -1 reroll, fire off some players who aren't brilliant _or_ fire off some players from your bench. With Orcs I probably wouldn't use more than 1 or 2 in the reserves. If you lose more than that too fast, you're probably getting crushed under the snowball anyway. And definitely fire off any extra staff at that point, competing for the extra skill reroll shouldn't be overly important at that point.


Here's a handy table for you on fouling, in case you don't have a Dirty Player yet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YAcKy4xnvPkley482xCwwfhIa65m7kMz7_jNsfZcPGo/edit?hl=en#gid=0

I feel like DP is mandatory on a team with a cheap lino with the Bribe enhancement on stadiums. It makes it worth fouling even on the first half.

[Done25]

Originally posted by zyn:

Originally posted by Done25:

I'm in the 2k+ area sadly. XD

Then try to trim some fat from your team. How much over 2k? Leader on thrower and -1 reroll, fire off some players who aren't brilliant _or_ fire off some players from your bench. With Orcs I probably wouldn't use more than 1 or 2 in the reserves. If you lose more than that too fast, you're probably getting crushed under the snowball anyway. And definitely fire off any extra staff at that point, competing for the extra skill reroll shouldn't be overly important at that point.


Here's a handy table for you on fouling, in case you don't have a Dirty Player yet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YAcKy4xnvPkley482xCwwfhIa65m7kMz7_jNsfZcPGo/edit?hl=en#gid=0

I feel like DP is mandatory on a team with a cheap lino with the Bribe enhancement on stadiums. It makes it worth fouling even on the first half.

1 spare Lineman in case of injuries, only 3 Re-rolls, and 0 staff.

[Answulf]

Learning to manage your TV effectively is one of the steps in moving from new player to experienced. Both teams and individual players can suffer from what is called "TV Bloat" and it is different for every position and every team. Basically, each player has an optimal bang-for-your-buck TV cost, based on their position and your play style. After that, extra skills start giving you dimishing returns that help your opponent more than you.

Take a Black Orc Blocker for example:

Let's say that for the way you are designing your team, the optimal build on one is Block, Guard and MB. His optimal TV is 140. (80+20+20+20) When a Black Orc that already has those 3 skills levels up, he is starting to bloat (TV 160) and you should cut him from your team (or sell him in the marketplace), then start over with a new Black Orc. This is a hard concept for new players to swallow because they just want to level up their players as much as possible.

In a similar vein, a lot of players will cut a player who doesn't roll doubles on his first or second level-up. Big Guys are a good example of this - without block they can be extremely unreliable, so some coaches will cut them if they don't get doubles.

Skinks are another good example of players cut relatively quickly in their career - without General skills, they quickly run out of decent options.

For similar reasons, it is a good idea to cut any player that receives a permanent injury.

Linemen can cause bloat on expensive teams where you had to buy a bunch at first, but start purchasing more positional players later on.

Rerolls can also cause TV bloat. Early on at low TV, a low skill roster can benefit from a lot of rerolls. But once your players all start gaining a lot of skills and are more reliable, it might be prudent to cut a reroll from your roster.

Finally, keep in mind that the actual optimal TV for each player on your team is part common knowledge, part personal preference.

Of course, this is assuming you want to be very competitive. If the fun of skilling up your players is more important to you, get them all to legend and don't worry about it. But understand that the meta is completely broken at the extremely high TV that online open ladders are capable of, since the game wasn't designed for that.

[Answulf]

Originally posted by Done25:

Originally posted by zyn:

But what you seemed to be implying is that there's no way of competing. And there definitely is, unless you start to go in the 2k+++ territory. Especially in BB2 where people definitely are not min/maxing properly in regards to their TV.

I'm in the 2k+ area sadly. XD

That was obvious to experienced Orc coaches based on your OP - no offense to Zyn.

What is your TV at right now? What ares your top 3 most expensive/experienced players?

[Songbird]

Guard is the way to stay competitive as orcs in the bashing game. Kill their killer pieces with your tpombers and foul them with your linemen. Once you got rid of the cpombers they lose pretty much their only way of taking you out because the rest of the team has only access to guard on doubles.

If they are a full on killer team with only cpombers (seen those in NAF) then they most likely lack block AND guard and should be able to quickly dispose of them.