Chaos nerf suggestion.

[skydancer]

Well, after 20 years of experience (tabletop - fumbbl) in this game i want to say something about balance.
I never played chaos before, but last week i made a team in BB2.
They're performance really surprise me. They're difficult at beginning but at high TV they become a very scary team. That's why:

1) Claw, MB, PO simply crush every other bash team at high TV, no matter what you say. IT IS.
2) Chaos warrior and beast man are underpriced.
Chaos warrior : +1mov +1ag and access to GSM for just 20k more than a black orc.
Beastman : horns and accesso to GSM for 10k compared to human lineman
3) RR price reduced from 70k to 60k.
4) You don't need big guy to compete vs other bash team. This save a lot of TV.

I costantly play with my chaos team with 4 CW, 7Beastman and i always outplay any team with the same TV. With just 1-2 Claw, MB, PO u can drive the match your way. After some turn you outnumer the opponent.

My suggestion for nerf is :

1) 70k RR
and/or
2) 110k CW
and/or
3) Mutation (even if aviable on normal advancement roll) improve your TV as a double skill roll (30k instead of 20k) This will improve your TV for every Claw skill u use but don't change too much the mutation flavour that chaos had.

[manlyman34]

chaos pound ass thanks to a lack of other high tv teams in the game right now

they ruin the open ladder meta, yeah, a fact that may have blunted the games release, but we just gotta wait for other teams

[VonFIDDE]

Well i agree so much with this the balance between stats and startingskills (skillaccess) is way off. Has always been off and still its defended by "its fun" or "its there for the challenge". I would even argue that the elfs are in the same boat, just compare a woodelf lineman and human blitzer (1agi vs 1av when it comes to tv). Even with all teams some teams just have the upper hand, have always been that way and i guess it will never change :/.

[Dode]

After 20 years of playing the game and many hours gathering and analyzing data on hundreds of thousands of games[forum.bloodbowl-game.com] I want to say this:

Chaos do not need a nerf.

1. CPOMB causes more cas than without claw, but those bash teams have access to POMB and the majority of chaos players are AV8, which is far worse than the AV9 Orcs and Dwarves almost all start with. Not all blocks against Orcs and Dwarves are with claw. Furthermore, Orcs and Dwarves start with skills and chaos don't. That means Guard, and lots of it.
2. No, they are priced correctly. Comparisons across teams are not how the pricings are done, this is: http://forum.bloodbowl-game.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=457#p3824
3. RR price is fair, given their lifetime performance (the actual metric of balance selected by the BBRC, rather than something you've arbitrarily chosen).
4. Most bash teams don't "need" a big guy. Trolls are not great, and neither is the deathroller.

I costantly play with my chaos team with 4 CW, 7Beastman and i always outplay any team with the same TV.

Perhaps 20 years of playing the game has something to do with that?

The problem lies in the nature of the ladder. Chaos are a long-burn team which get better as TV increases, while most other teams (DE/WE are the exception) have a TV at which they are most efficient. The ladder allows unfettered growth, which is exacerbated by the fact that teams can concede without any penalty (51SPP rule), handing excessive SPP and cash to the team which is conceded to. Chaos are not a problem in ANY other environment: neither challenge leagues such as R on FUMBBL nor scheduled leagues have any issues with chaos.

[patbou73]

What is the 51 SPP rule?

[Mandarga]

When you concede to a player, your 51+SPP guys can leave the team on a roll of 4+
If you concede before the start of the match or if you can't put 2 players on the pitch you can concede without this penalty.

[manlyman34]

Originally posted by Dode:

Trolls are not great, and neither is the deathroller.

any orc team who runs no troll has no heart

[hammerinn]

make claw always a doubles. done deal

[machurto]

Originally posted by hammerinn:

make claw always a doubles. done deal

How does making Claw a double solves anything on an open infinite ladder? It only makes CPOMB a bit more coumbersome to get but eventually all chaos teams can get there

[DarthPhysicist]

Its fine as is. Without Chaos murder clubs, we'd just be sitting here complaining about Dorfs all day.

Forget about balance first of all. The game is not balanced, will never be balanced, and should never be balanced. I've got a $2000 Imprerial Guard army that couldn't beat a $500 Space Marine army. Let the idea of balance go and just work with what you have. If you think you are the underdog because its baked into the cake, just enjoy your wins that much more.

[skydancer]

Originally posted by darthphysicist:

Its fine as is. Without Chaos murder clubs, we'd just be sitting here complaining about Dorfs all day.

Forget about balance first of all. The game is not balanced, will never be balanced, and should never be balanced. I've got a $2000 Imprerial Guard army that couldn't beat a $500 Space Marine army. Let the idea of balance go and just work with what you have. If you think you are the underdog because its baked into the cake, just enjoy your wins that much more.

Typicall games workshop player mentality. :D

That's why they're game are soo bad. Actually BB is the only good game they did but it's far from being perfect.

[Dode]

Perfect is very much subjective in this case.

[DarthPhysicist]

skydancer, you don't find any enjoyment out of taking a "crap" team and winning with them? I personally love beating people with gobos when I am so blessed. Or taking a middle tier team and beating the win percentages. Basically, its a great way to take a handicap for the best player in a league where everyone knows each other so your friends can have a chance to unseat you. As much as I think Brets blow, its good to have teams like that just for the challenge of figuring out a way to make them decent.

[VonFIDDE]

Thing is there is a way to make everyone happy.. or atleast happier. What if when you create a league you could choose from "classic" or "balanced" ruleset/balance, hence giving the choice to people if they want to play in a balanced setting or if they want the classic setting. The open free league is perfect for a teambalanced gameplay since that won't scare new players or make them feel like the team they enjoy just won't cut it. I know many people that want to start playing BB or just started but then are scared away with the unbalance within the game. There is alot of data regarding the game, but some of that data is from tournaments with specific settings hence making it invalid. Alot of good BBplayers have already explained that in a tournament-setting without special rules there is about 10 teams, that counts as propper t1. Some people still argue that there is more teams within t1, but lets be honest if your goal is to win and to have the highest chance of winning you won't be picking low t1-teams. I also think this sort of option between classic and balanced ruleset would help the game as a whole to grow, the competitive BB scene if balanced could turn into a Esport.

[Dode]

I'm all for options. I'm just far from certain that we're not already suffering from that blight of all such games, balance creep. When is balanced balanced enough?

The fact is that there are 16-18 teams which can reasonably be called balanced in the settings for which the game was designed (i.e. not matchmaking). If you want a matchmaking which is balanced then you have to change the meta, which it is entirely possible to do, but for some reason there is more resistance to changing a clearly unbalancing environment than there is to changing teams which work in the majority of environments.

[Dreamifi]

I don't think I've heard of balance creep, what is that?