Would like advice on dodge related skills

[Complex]

First to explain where I am coming from in case people have more general advice for me: I've tried both blocking and dodging styles of gameplay as well as both passing and running and found I like blocking/running the best. Specifically I like it when the opponent can't get double dice on my guys. I first tried Lizardmen because you can have 6 ST4 players but found that that was far outweighed by other teams simply having more players they can safely use in blocks(plus my teams always ended up with level 1 Sauri by the time my Skinks were reaching level 3 or 4). Then I tried dwarfs thinking that what I wanted was to outnumber the other players via injuries but I found specifically trying to cause injuries kinda made me feel bad. So I cast my eyes on either Orcs or Chaos as Dwarfs ST3 is pretty debilitating unless you can outnumber and found they had a pretty similar lineup as far as the things I cared about were concerned. Orc's ability to pass being useless to me, lack of impressive abilities on the troll, and limited skill choices for linemen made me decide to go Chaos.

So now I am building a Chaos team that isn't going to take either Mighty Blow or Claw and I am wondering where to go with it because mutations give you so many options. I am taking block then guard for every player aside from the dedicated ball carrier. After that I'd like to take advantage of Chaos having average agility/movement even though they have high ST and was wondering what skills are most useful in that regard. Will be taking Dodge on all doubles. In two categories:

A.Dodging skills- Break Tackle/Two Heads
I am assuming Break Tackle is better than Two Heads on any player with ST5. But for ST4 is Two Heads just better because it doesn't have the once per turn limitation or are there situations where Break Tackles would be better for a ST4 AG3 player?

B.Anti-dodging skills- Tackle/Prehensile Tail/Tentacles
This one I am utterly lost on what would be most useful. I assume it would be good to have a mixture re: if someone is in the tackle zones of players that have all three you could use Tentacles and if that fails they still have to dodge out with a -1 modifier and without a free dodge reroll. But when I look at the actual usefulness of the skills on their own it feels like Tackle is the best because of making Defender Stumbles into a Defender Down, but I am not sure. I assume Tentacles is a must have on anyone with ST5 but beyond that I have no clue.

If you read all that I would really like to thank you. I've tried looking up info on this on my own but I can't find anything about people trying to build Chaos for anything but murder.

[Sielas]

One of Chaos' biggest strengths is their access to a variety of skills. IMO you should have a good variety of players. Even if you're not going a full murder team I'd advise you to get at least one CW and two beastmen with MB+Claw , etc. When someone gets +AG or doubles for Dodge give him a ton of ball handling skills and two heads and make him into a scary elf. Spread some Guard around here and there. Tackle I would advise you to think of as more of a blocking skill than an anti-dodging skill. Prehensile tail and tentacles are good after you've gotten some core skills but not every team is going to try to run away from you so don't overdo it.

[RodHull]

Originally posted by Sielas:

One of Chaos' biggest strengths is their access to a variety of skills. IMO you should have a good variety of players.

THIS

I have a ball playing chaos team but I still have a few guys with MB and 2 with claw... even elven teams have MB guys for removing key pieces.

As for dodge pieces, if you roll double get dodge then also get two heads + block and you have an elf basically who can become str4 on a blitz :)

[licker34]

Shouldn't have quit on the lizards, but the hard part is that you have to score TDs with the sauri. Easier said than done, but if you never try, you will never succeed :)

[RodHull]

Originally posted by licker34:

Shouldn't have quit on the lizards, but the hard part is that you have to score TDs with the sauri. Easier said than done, but if you never try, you will never succeed :)

I would say have to is pushing it somewhat... its nice when you can but if you play them right they should level just fine without it.

[makemakey]

A Regarding break tackle, it only works once per turn per player, so yes on ST4 AG3 Two heads is just better

B) Tenctacles good on high strength players only (warrior/ mino) , P tail doesnt matter so in theory could be used on beastman to, but probably they will just block him down, so maybe on warriors a possibiility


I have tried chaos without the "kill"-skills, and so far the team is doing quite ok, 26-3-6 win/draw/loss. This is how i build it now at TV 1760

It plays much more like a "normal" team like orcs, few big guard guys to make cage and make sure you can get the 2D on important blocks (enemy cage)
2 blitzers beastman solely for breaking lines with frenzy and surfing if possible
2 blitz beastman with tackle and wrestle to take out isolated players / escaped ball carriers
2 ball carrier beastman with big hand to scoop up the ball after a scatter in tacklezones, dodge is nice on them if you roll doubles :)
3 lino beastman (i dont put the warriors on the line ever on defense against strong teams)


Skill overview so far:
4 Chaos warriors: Guard, Block,
(3th skill maybe tentacles or prehensile tail or stand firm)

2 blitzing surf beastman: Frenzy, Juggernaught ,
(3th skill possibly Stand firm or side step)

2 Ball carry beastman: Sure hands, Big hand, Block, (dodge/sidestep, maybe two heads next)

2 Ball hawk beastman: Wrestle, Tackle
(3 th skill possibly strip ball)

3 Lino beastman: no skills / block

The team is in the cabal vision leage, name Steam Powered if you want to check it out :)


edit: added screenshot http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=615179542

[RodHull]

Ive built a very similar team with similar success, i think its 30-1-6 or something like that.

I have an agi beastman with big hand dodge block and fend hes an absolute beast at retrieving and keeping the ball

Have a second guy who has blodge and two heads whos also handy, then a bunch of block guys the mb and a clmb bm.

CWs have 1x blodge 1 x block tackle and 2 x block guard and mino with guard, claw and block

It works rather well against most teams except kill teams where it suffers a bit.

[licker34]

Originally posted by RodHull:

Originally posted by licker34:

Shouldn't have quit on the lizards, but the hard part is that you have to score TDs with the sauri. Easier said than done, but if you never try, you will never succeed :)

I would say have to is pushing it somewhat... its nice when you can but if you play them right they should level just fine without it.

Sorry, how do you 'play them right' and still keep spp parity with skinks?

That's the rub really, skinks bloat so damn fast, and you face tougher opponents which just makes your sauri struggle that much more.

6spp for block, but 16spp for block MB before you can reliably think about them generating spp through cas.

You need to score with them.

[DarthPhysicist]

Skinks bloat but seldom live long. I would think your TV will fluctuate but eventually through casualties and MVPs you will level the Sauri. I wouldn't keep much of a bench to facilitate MVPs on the Sauri.

[licker34]

Eventually?

Oh hell, if you're talking eventually then sure, why bother.

Trust me, you want to score with your sauri, you don't want to score with your skinks. Beyond the obvious scoring to win, but once you're up 2-0, or even 1-0 2nd half... exactly zero point to score anymore with skinks. (fair enough if you are in a league with TD differential tie breakers, but I'd still think building competent sauri faster should take precedence)

I guess if you find you're never comfortably ahead then yeah, this may not work for you, but if you're never comfortably ahead you probably need more work on your game. Lizards at lowish TVs can absolutely dominate certain matchups and get in positions where it is easy to risk the 33% pick up/catch for your sauri. With a reroll that's over 50% success rate.

[Döktor Jönes]

I just wanted to add to the Lizardmen discussion and a point that OP maybe didn't think about:
If Skinks do inflate your TV, you can fire them. Rule of thumb would be if a skink didn't roll a double or +stats after 2 (or 3) lvl ups, fire him.

After that, the Sauruses will grow... slowly... but they grow :D

[licker34]

They grow faster if you score TDs with them.

*shrug*

[DarthPhysicist]

Originally posted by licker34:

They grow faster if you score TDs with them.

*shrug*

Yes you are correct, but your prior comment about scoring when you need to is more important. If you have time to force feed Sauri TDs, then the game is well in hand and your opponent is not a challenge. Its not an effective general team strategy unless you are in a league of bad players. I agree with the above comment that firing bloated skinks will resolve this problem on its own.

[licker34]

Are we talking league or ladder though?

In league if you don't keep TV pace (without bloated skinks) you are sunk, it's even more imperative to get your sauri skilled.

In ladder? Well it sort of doesn't matter there, but if you want to play 10 games with blockless sauri (or with just a couple) instead of 5 be my guest.

There's a bit of an art to it, but honestly, even in a 0-0 game, 1st half, if you stole the ball, hand it off to a saurus, 55% with a reroll.

Of course it all depends on how good you are relative to your opponent, and how the CAS dice have already fallen, but if you aren't scoring with sauri as much as you possibly can you're just prolonging the joy of playing low TV lizards, or playing with bloated skinks.

My point is pretty clear I think, many coaches would never even try to score with them, as evidenced by comments along the line of "they will skill up eventually anyway". That's bad team management frankly, but to each their own.

[DarthPhysicist]

Ladder does not rate even discussion in my book. With an unlimited amount of games to play, you can level fast or slow and it doesn't matter. There's no challenge. Leagues on the other hand separate the men from the boys. Don't underestimate inducements. I win when down in TV as much as when I'm even.

[licker34]

Surely that depends on the amount you are down.

100 is nothing.

Even 200 isn't really an issue.

400+...

Inducements don't help enough at that level when you are still a low TV team lacking core skills.

Anyway, my point was to the OP, maybe it doesn't apply to you, but if you run a team with lvl1 sauri and lvl 4 skinks you are either really unlucky, or not managing them correctly. You can score TDs with sauri, and you should try to.

How much? Depends on how good you are, or how any particular game is going.