Humans vs Orcs and Chaos vs Orcs

[Chop]

Hi all

I just got out of what felt like some kind of pinyata reinactment with my human team vs Orcs. We were both at the lower end of TV. Essentially, while I have been really enjoying the humans playstyle and I even managed to outmonouver some Nurgle and Dwarfs earlier, the Matchup vs Orcs feels very much in their favour.

Throughout the entire match, minus a desperate and extremely lucky last-minute dodge and surf play which gave me the draw, I was pretty much getting beaten around the entire game and struggled to slow down and penetrate his box. I couldn't really "push" back and could only get very ocassional digs in before the depitches and numbers began to rack up and eventually I would get overwhelmed, offense or defense. My only tactical and strategic option was a poor mans screen mixed with the ocassional lineman trash mark on Black Orcs. Offense too felt like a race to try to run up one side of the pitch after distracting them up another.

In contrast, while I am aware Chaos get a bad rep as a low TV team, I feel that, at least from my experience, low TV Chaos can actually fight back against Orcs. Horns allows me to not only shove back even Black Orcs but the Chaos Warriors allow me to outright blow open holes in their box and take the fight to them. I lack block, sure hands and the speed, but my extra strength makes the Chaos matchup feel a lot more manageable in terms of pitch control and though I lack block, I can at least produce more 2d block dice to try to shove the Orcs back or even crack some skulls.

So to sum up: Is this simply a subjective observation from my own experience or is this how the matchups both generally play?

Also any advice for the Human vs Orc matchup?

Cheers

[DarthPhysicist]

Humans are at a disadvantage vs orcs; there is disagreement as to whether humans are even a decent team, but everyone thinks of orcs as a viable choice. Fresh chaos vs fresh orcs go for the orcs, but it's not cut and dry. Chaos is a bit more mobile and as you mention, can have a st 4 blitz pretty much anywhere in addition to the warriors, but I'm not sure that overcomes the start of orcs with 4 block pieces. Block is just that important. The extra armor on orcs also means they come out ahead in the attrition battle at low TV which both teams depend on.

[Chop]

Originally posted by DarthPhysicist:

Humans are at a disadvantage vs orcs; there is disagreement as to whether humans are even a decent team, but everyone thinks of orcs as a viable choice. Fresh chaos vs fresh orcs go for the orcs, but it's not cut and dry. Chaos is a bit more mobile and as you mention, can have a st 4 blitz pretty much anywhere in addition to the warriors, but I'm not sure that overcomes the start of orcs with 4 block pieces. Block is just that important. The extra armor on orcs also means they come out ahead in the attrition battle at low TV which both teams depend on.

Oh ya, I know Orcs have the edge in both due to numerous aspects. What I was getting at is, while the Orcs do have the edge in both, the Chaos, at least to me, feel like a closer matchup. Just off the top of my head, Chaos vs Orcs feels to me like a 45:55 to the Orcs, where Humans feels like 30:70 in terms of a matchup ratio of some form. Both Orcs should win, but the Chaos got a better chance due to having their strength and horns.

I just wanted to clarify those thoughts/observations and also get some advice for my poor humans.

[licker34]

Humans are trash, there is no hope, just suffering while listening to people tell you they are 'not that bad'.

But they are that bad, if not actually worse.

Though at low TV the split shouldn't be that large, Humans do have more speed than orcs (or chaos) and start with 4 block, which can help as well. The problem is likely that you are trying to fight a block war against teams whom you are ill equipped to fight a block war against.

That doesn't mean you should be trying to dodge away like elves, but it does mean that you shouldn't be giving them extra blocks by deciding to mark them, especially the BoBs.

[DarthPhysicist]

Your estimate of the edge of orcs over chaos is about right I think.

Humans are a tough road. They don't really excel anywhere and really need to make best use of their relative speed (as you noticed with a dorf matchup). I would take two catchers, one on ball carrier duty and one searching for a score threat by handoff while the blitzers guard up and then add MB. Cautious, smart offense is really essential with an emphasis on positioning. Humans are not new player friendly in that regard, much like dwarves, but like dwarves, they offer a lot in the way of learning essential positioning skills that can help in the broarder sense. Humans are just a bit more delicate than dorfs so when you screw up, it hurts worse...

[Chop]

Originally posted by licker34:

Humans are trash, there is no hope, just suffering while listening to people tell you they are 'not that bad'.

But they are that bad, if not actually worse.

Though at low TV the split shouldn't be that large, Humans do have more speed than orcs (or chaos) and start with 4 block, which can help as well. The problem is likely that you are trying to fight a block war against teams whom you are ill equipped to fight a block war against.

That doesn't mean you should be trying to dodge away like elves, but it does mean that you shouldn't be giving them extra blocks by deciding to mark them, especially the BoBs.

A harsh critique of humans. I am no human expert by any stretch of the imagination but they don't feel trash to me, just not specialized, which can make them feel like trash to some I imagine. At least at low TV. I did have a Human team in COL and while my team was literally decimated (8 injuries/3 deaths type games) on three seperate occassions, I will say Griff Oberwald legitimately carried and saved my team/matches near single handedly. Felt bloody naked without him after though.

In terms of the Orc match and games, the logic was to separate the Bob's and gradually "peel" his box so I could MAYBE try to swarm it. But the Blorcs caught up after my Av8 cracked alongside the linemens skulls and to say I was lucky to get the ball off him would be an understatement, only cause of Mv7 with a blitzer did I get it off him.

Originally posted by DarthPhysicist:

Your estimate of the edge of orcs over chaos is about right I think.

Humans are a tough road. They don't really excel anywhere and really need to make best use of their relative speed (as you noticed with a dorf matchup). I would take two catchers, one on ball carrier duty and one searching for a score threat by handoff while the blitzers guard up and then add MB. Cautious, smart offense is really essential with an emphasis on positioning. Humans are not new player friendly in that regard, much like dwarves, but like dwarves, they offer a lot in the way of learning essential positioning skills that can help in the broarder sense. Humans are just a bit more delicate than dorfs so when you screw up, it hurts worse...

I got that for sure, in one way I find their delicate nature very appealing. Minus the Orc matchup, I do like how, using Chaos as another example, if my box has collapsed I can try a desperate but actually plausible hail mary pass with my thrower or even hand-off to a blitzer. As Chaos, I only have the choice to bash, maim and kill and if that fails, well, I got nothin. So they are versatile but in the broader sense than the Elven BS sense. I love that, but when I faced the Orcs, no amount of adapting could help. There was no back up plays or plans or alternatives. There was just slamming my head against a brick wall and then the brick wall punching me back.

I've found using the human catcher to be surprisingly good, almost as the humans pseudo "elven" piece where if the ball is lose you can try to grab it and run for it. Also to add assists when needed on defense or distraction on offense.

Would there be any formations or general strategy advice either of you would have for me against Orcs when kicking and receiving?

[DarthPhysicist]

That's the trouble with humans; there isn't a set game plan. You really have to adapt to the situation to know what is "best" knowing full well that you are never doing what's "best" as good as another team can do it. Sometimes that's enough, but others it's terrible. Any time the humans are forced to default to a passing game is a terrible day...

I tend to agree with licker that humans are a bit garbage. They aren't Bret garbage, but they aren't really in the same league as Orcs or Chaos. I've seen more than a couple players dedicate a bunch of time to learning to play using humans and wind up quitting the game entirely. They really aren't very good at all but I do see value in an experienced player using them for a bit of a challenge that isn't as big a handicap as say, halflings or goblins.

[licker34]

Originally posted by Finks Finkster:

Originally posted by licker34:

Humans are trash, there is no hope, just suffering while listening to people tell you they are 'not that bad'.

But they are that bad, if not actually worse.

Though at low TV the split shouldn't be that large, Humans do have more speed than orcs (or chaos) and start with 4 block, which can help as well. The problem is likely that you are trying to fight a block war against teams whom you are ill equipped to fight a block war against.

That doesn't mean you should be trying to dodge away like elves, but it does mean that you shouldn't be giving them extra blocks by deciding to mark them, especially the BoBs.

A harsh critique of humans. I am no human expert by any stretch of the imagination but they don't feel trash to me,

Welp, believe your feelings then I guess.

Originally posted by Finks Finkster:

just not specialized, which can make them feel like trash to some I imagine.

Again, there is no 'feeling' involved, they are trash because they are not actually good at anything. Other teams which can be (or begin) specialized to be good at something (AG4, bash, whatever) will out pace Humans easily enough. Though, note that 'trash' doesn't mean they can't win any games, it means that they don't have as good a win rate as other T1 teams. You may say that them only being at 45% while Orcs are at 50% (examples, not actual win rates) doesn't 'feel' like trash, but being among the worst T1 teams does actually mean that they are trash.

Originally posted by Finks Finkster:

At least at low TV. I did have a Human team in COL and while my team was literally decimated (8 injuries/3 deaths type games) on three seperate occassions, I will say Griff Oberwald legitimately carried and saved my team/matches near single handedly. Felt bloody naked without him after though.

Low TV is where Humans still have a chance. As TV increases they will begin to lag other teams which can specialize better, or just have better players to build on along with better skill selection availabilities. Humans do not have A access other than catchers, so they can't dodge, they are AG3, they only have 4 (5 with Ogre) S access players, they can take a bit of most things, but cannot reach critical mass with anything, and so either cannot deal with AG4 elfs, or guard/MB spammed bashers. They are left being able to do the things those teams can't do 'better' than those teams, but still not well enough to call it a true advantage.

Originally posted by Finks Finkster:

In terms of the Orc match and games, the logic was to separate the Bob's and gradually "peel" his box so I could MAYBE try to swarm it. But the Blorcs caught up after my Av8 cracked alongside the linemens skulls and to say I was lucky to get the ball off him would be an understatement, only cause of Mv7 with a blitzer did I get it off him.

That works when your armor holds. You are AV8 though, your armor won't hold forever. Better usually to not even try to peel the cage until the end of the drive. And then it's not so much peeling, it's simply forcing the opponent to have to break the cage to get into scoring range. Still, humans are not good at this either, because they are AG3, because they don't usually have enough guard, and because they usually are losing players vs. AV9 teams.

[Chop]

Originally posted by DarthPhysicist:

That's the trouble with humans; there isn't a set game plan. You really have to adapt to the situation to know what is "best" knowing full well that you are never doing what's "best" as good as another team can do it. Sometimes that's enough, but others it's terrible. Any time the humans are forced to default to a passing game is a terrible day...

I tend to agree with licker that humans are a bit garbage. They aren't Bret garbage, but they aren't really in the same league as Orcs or Chaos. I've seen more than a couple players dedicate a bunch of time to learning to play using humans and wind up quitting the game entirely. They really aren't very good at all but I do see value in an experienced player using them for a bit of a challenge that isn't as big a handicap as say, halflings or goblins.

Yeah that's fair. Granted I played goblins obsessively and put them on a break only recently. They're still my favourite so I'd imagine that has influenced my perception. That's pretty depressing though! Do you mean they put all their time into humans and quit after they realized they weren't getting anywhere? Or just gave up cause they burnt out? Even I still play my Goblins here and there just for some stunty love and see my favourite Big Brainy Troll Star.

Originally posted by licker34:

Originally posted by Finks Finkster:

A harsh critique of humans. I am no human expert by any stretch of the imagination but they don't feel trash to me,

Welp, believe your feelings then I guess.

Well when you explain your reply in the full context (didn't quote you entirely or this post would be way too big), yes I see why you say they are trash. Bad for a tier 1 team, which is a shame to hear but I suppose at low TV I can stay somewhat in my little ingorant shed that humans are KIND OF "ok". I will still try to play around them but I am also curious if you know of anyone or if you know any advice or strategies for the matchup in particular?

It seems pretty crystal clear its a BAD, BAD matchup but would be nice to know some of the more intrinsic elements behind it besides "You're humans vs Orcs, prepare to die!". Which is likely going to be the case but would be nice to have even the feintest, shaggiest safety net of some form. Still a safety net of some form.

[DarthPhysicist]

Originally posted by Finks Finkster:

That's pretty depressing though! Do you mean they put all their time into humans and quit after they realized they weren't getting anywhere? Or just gave up cause they burnt out?

I think they may have overgeneralized their frustration with the game using humans as the benchmark, which is a shame. We had a guy in our league that was a lot of fun, had a great attitude, but as he kept losing to the more experienced players, his attitude soured, he withdrew in frustration, and then ultimately quit entirely after getting a shelacking which humans are prone to receive. I would love to have him back because I really think he needed to spend his learning period playing something other than humans. Dice games are too harsh to learn with a ball and chain on your ankle...

[Chop]

Originally posted by DarthPhysicist:

Originally posted by Finks Finkster:

That's pretty depressing though! Do you mean they put all their time into humans and quit after they realized they weren't getting anywhere? Or just gave up cause they burnt out?

I think they may have overgeneralized their frustration with the game using humans as the benchmark, which is a shame. We had a guy in our league that was a lot of fun, had a great attitude, but as he kept losing to the more experienced players, his attitude soured, he withdrew in frustration, and then ultimately quit entirely after getting a shelacking which humans are prone to receive. I would love to have him back because I really think he needed to spend his learning period playing something other than humans. Dice games are too harsh to learn with a ball and chain on your ankle...

Aaaah. Well that sounds a bit more like the game as a whole rather than humans specifically. You see a lot online and offline of people who just burn out mentally due to frustration and dice overall. Which in one way is a shame but also shows the huge entry barrier for a lot of people.

I learned this game through Goblins which both helped me and didn't. Hell as soon as I played them I ordered the Goblin team and weapons from GW two weeks later! I still love them and the game but it was one hell of a steep learning curve to climb! One game I kill a Rat Ogre with my saw, the next it duds and I am there wondering what on earth was going on. I followed on from Goblins to Chaos which in one way was more grounded but on the other I was wondering why my Chaos Warriors couldn't dodge through 2-3 people like my Goblins :P. But that's understandable and I'd imagine he was getting murdered as the TV rose where, ironically where Goblins can still get some good bites in due to inducements and their Stars and Chaos of course become living blenders.

Shame really. Here's hoping that some humie coach comes along with some sage advice to save my bacon.

[DarthPhysicist]

There are plenty of guides online (plasmoid has a bunch) that can help you make the best of the human situation, but I guess the takeaway that most players need to understand is that, certain teams have built in challenges that are worse than others, and you need that much more skill at the game to have a winning chance than if you used another team. It's all that sliding scale of how much a team relies on dice. Goblins absolutely NEED the dice to be rolling for them the entire game, whereas a team like dorfs is much more weighted to a coaches skill at maintaining position and can survive some bad dice here and there. Of course, any team is rubbish in the face of a string of 1s...

[licker34]

You've gotten the advice you need about Humans, there is no magic way to play them which makes them (more) competitive. It's blood bowl, while teams have different strengths and weaknesses ultimately the game is the game and how you approach it is dependant on your teams build relative to your opponents build.

Humans feel as though they should be 'good' or at least 'ok' because they have speed along with A and S access, but the fact is that they don't have enough of anything to become actually 'good' at whatever it is you want to think they can be good at. They are 'ok' at a lot of things, but the problem is that 'ok' is just not good enough when faced with a team which is good (if not great) at whatever it is they are built for.

[Döktor Jönes]

Humans are nice against "Softer" Bash teams (like Norse or early Chaos) IF you get Guard on everything first, because then you can out-bash them.


As for the initial post: YEAH, you're right. Chaos can actually attempt to try to break an orc cage. For humans, it's like any other weaker running/agillity team: Stand in the way and poke.

[Chop]

Originally posted by DarthPhysicist:

There are plenty of guides online (plasmoid has a bunch) that can help you make the best of the human situation, but I guess the takeaway that most players need to understand is that, certain teams have built in challenges that are worse than others, and you need that much more skill at the game to have a winning chance than if you used another team. It's all that sliding scale of how much a team relies on dice. Goblins absolutely NEED the dice to be rolling for them the entire game, whereas a team like dorfs is much more weighted to a coaches skill at maintaining position and can survive some bad dice here and there. Of course, any team is rubbish in the face of a string of 1s...

Thanks for that, I will check out some of Plasmoid's guides then. Also yeah that is fair, I mean I started with Goblins so the idea of some teams being naturally weaker than others is pretty understandable. Though since I started with a stunty team followed by Chaos to co-incide, I guess that has probably made me view on humans a fair bit more rosey.

Originally posted by licker34:

You've gotten the advice you need about Humans, there is no magic way to play them which makes them (more) competitive. It's blood bowl, while teams have different strengths and weaknesses ultimately the game is the game and how you approach it is dependant on your teams build relative to your opponents build.

Humans feel as though they should be 'good' or at least 'ok' because they have speed along with A and S access, but the fact is that they don't have enough of anything to become actually 'good' at whatever it is you want to think they can be good at. They are 'ok' at a lot of things, but the problem is that 'ok' is just not good enough when faced with a team which is good (if not great) at whatever it is they are built for.

I wasn't necessarily asking for a magic way to play them for more competitive, just help vs their arch nemesis the Orcs :P. But ya I did a bit more research and looks like Humans have the major weakness of long term scaling. Though I sort of did and didn't feel that in my matches with Griff Oberwald who feels like he is pretty much a one-man team carrier. But ya, their mediocracy essentially catches up and bites them in the ass is what I am getting.

Originally posted by Spiked-Wall Man:

Humans are nice against "Softer" Bash teams (like Norse or early Chaos) IF you get Guard on everything first, because then you can out-bash them.


As for the initial post: YEAH, you're right. Chaos can actually attempt to try to break an orc cage. For humans, it's like any other weaker running/agillity team: Stand in the way and poke.

I see. Yeah I understood that Chaos felt they could scrum it out. With my humans, my pokes didn't feel so great, and standing in the way felt like trying to stop a train with a snotling. Hopefully I will get a better understanding of the matchup with more playtime.

[avaririot]

Humans are a perfectly decent team since catchers were upgraded and they weren't even awful to begin with. They don't level that well past about 1800, but the same can be said about half the teams in Blood Bowl.