Yep, RNG is borked.

[ramjbjb]

Certainly in singleplayer mode, it is. And whoever says otherwise it's either an apologist, clueless, or either. Sorry facts are just facts, and random events don't play out as they do in this game, at least not against AI

Let's put it straight - I own this game because it was gifted to me. I consciously stood away from it because while I owned and played BB1 back in the day, I "fondly" remember it's RNG. no, not really. I utterly loathed it...because I lived under the constant impression that the RNG was ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ on me all the time. So when BB2 came out I didn't bother with it, but last week I got it gifted to me and I've been playing it quite a bit. Enough to remember how good the game is (the original tabletop game, I mean), and why I loathed it's port into computer so much when Cyanide released the first version. Because nothing has changed: against the AI the RNG is not random at all.

Now, first of all, I'm not talking about online matches. I'm renowned for having probably the worst luck in RNG games ever. Seriously , I have friends who when I used to play hearthstone they logged in just to spend some time in spectator mode having the best laughs ever watching me suffer the atrocious luck I have with RNG. So I'm saving myself the pain here and playing only vs the AI in solo mode.

Second of all, I'm not talking because I'm losing. I'm winning almost every game I play vs the AI, even with the extremely botched and cheating RNG it exploits.

But it annoys me. RNG is even, random. Random results tend to spread evenly through both sides. Nope, not in this game, and certainly not against the AI (don't care about multiplayer, again). Let's be serious here and name things as such: the AI cheats. And it CLEARLY does so.

How do I know?. Because I know how to play this game, I know my fair bit about statistics and I know how evenly spread RNG results look like. And it certainly DOESN'T look like what this game rolls.

It's ludicrous to think that out of all the (very numerous, VAST, in fact) times the AI attacks with red dice no skulls ever happen in those rolls. Defender down, stumbles, arrows, whatever - but NOTHING that causes a turnover.

Hand on my heart, I'm putting my word at stake here, I've seen dozens of red dices rolled by the AI in the days I've been playing BB2. Out of those I think I've forced a turnover 3-4 times TOPS. Again, I'm not making it up.


Single dices is the same BS. The AI has a significantly high result of no turnover results on those when it should be pretty much even.

Double skulls roll for the AI?. Seen it maybe half a dozen times. I can roll 6 of those in 2 games, easily. But no the AI.



I could go and elaborate on so many hints that points out that the RNG is intentionally NOT. (not random, I mean) and that it's hillariously weighed towards the AI side.

I guess it's to put too much faith on a developer to write an AI that can play a game this complicated with enough competence. But at least they could have the minimum decency of admitting it. Because FOR SURE, the RNG for the AI is utterly stupid, and not random.

Again, can't talk about multiplayer, I've played BB2 online only once with a friend and I'm staying intentionally away from it. But the AI RNG is not random.



Why did I decide to come here with this declaration?. Well last game (and probably the last game I play in BB2 forever, I don't like playing rigged♥♥♥♥♥♥even if I win) I had the extreme pleasure of getting my Beast of Nurgle going stupid the first four turns of a game. All of them. And yes, I know how the mechanic works, and yes I had other characters next to it. That's four 1s in a row in four consecutive turns.

Now let's put it this way. Rolling an 1 in a D6 dice supposedly happens 1 times out of 6. 2 times in a row happens 1 time out of 36. 3 times in a row?. 1 time out of 198. Four?. once each 594 times.

In that same game (in fact, in turn 2 of that game) I rolled two skulls. Reroll. Two skulls again. Skull is a result of 1. I rolled two snake eyes in a row. Anyone who knows anything about dice games knows rolling both 1s is a 1/36 chance. Two in a row is a 1/1296 chance event. Funny thing is, third turn, first roll...two skulls (thanfully that reroll wasn't skulls again, it'd been even more ludicrous). That's 1 in 46656 event.

So I got in the same game something that happens 1 time each 594 and another that happens 1 in 46656. That happens once each 27.713.664 times.

a 1 in almost 28 million event deserves a thread on it's own. I think ;).


I won't say every game is like this, but the RNG IS extreme. The red dice stupid stuff is so extreme that I'm sure I've seen worse odds than 1 in 28 millions in some of my games without even noticing it.
Whatever number generator we have in this game is NOT random (at least in offline mode) and is extremely stacked, both against the player and in favor of the AI. I refuse to play something that's so stupidly stacked for one side to compensate for the lazy♥♥♥♥♥designers who refused to make a proper AI for this game.

I won that match, btw. Once more, this is not about me being butthurt because I lose. I win, but I don't care. I can't put up with this kind of stacked BS.


And I'll insist once more: I'm not talking about MP because I'm not interested in that. This is just to put out in the clear that the singleplayer mode is OBVIOUSLY atrociously stacked. I know a lot of people get♥♥♥♥♥♥on for complaining about it, but yep...they do complain with good reason indeed.

[Dode]

I'll just put this here: http://steamcommunity.com/app/236690/discussions/0/1496741765131191182/

I don't expect it to change your mind: yours is made up. But hopefully it will act as a counterpoint to your post and allow people who might otherwise believe your nonsense about "evenly spread" (which is not a thing in a small sample size).

Fact is this: you've just been unlucky. Feel free to rant on, though: it's always fun watching people rant about the RNG being broken when they've just been unlucky.

[ramjbjb]

I'ts been a freakin unlucky week then. Because it's been this way since I got the game. Just by watching the AI rolling red dice and the results it gets it's blatant. The 1-in-28 million odds I saw in that last game might been a case of "unlucky". but the problem is that as I said randomness spreads even. It doesn't vs the AI.

And even while I can get unlucky at times...look, sorry, I'll believe in 1vs28 million odds when I win the lottery. Because if lottery worked like it does in this game the AI would win it several times over (while you look powerless). That kind of thing doesn't happen by accident - it happens by design, or as a result of a design that HEAVILY weighs randomness to one side.


Said that: had that happened just by accident, in the context of a game where most matches see spread luck between AI and player?. I'd have laughed my ass off about how unlucky it was. The problem is that the context of this game is not like that. The context of this game is an AI with weighed results. And when when on top of that the kind of crap I described happens then it's not fun nor something that makes you laugh. It's stuff that pretty much infuriates anyone with a proper analytic mind.

And then it's not fun at all. I want to play the game vs a competent AI. Not against a stacked number generator. I like challenges...but I don't like being cheated on.

and the AI clearly cheats in this game. Sorry, but I trust my eyes.

[Ringtail♥]

Back when I played bb1 and was learning the game, playing mostly singleplayer, I had some (alot) issues with dice. I pushed through (cause i still loved the game) and switched exclusivly to multiplayer, played for quite some time. After that I played singleplayer out of curiosity and found that almost no amount of bad dice could make me lose, it was severly anti-climatic.

[ramjbjb]

Originally posted by Ringtail♥:

Back when I played bb1 and was learning the game, playing mostly singleplayer, I had some (alot) issues with dice. I pushed through (cause i still loved the game) and switched exclusivly to multiplayer, played for quite some time. After that I played singleplayer out of curiosity and found that almost no amount of bad dice could make me lose, it was severly anti-climatic.

Yep, that's the problem. The AI is extremely poor so even with incredibly stacked results, you still can win no problem. I do at least (I think I've drawed twice vs the AI out of all games I've played...and most of them have been with Nurgle and as we all know starting nurgles aren't exactly the best :P).

The issue I have with the game is not that you can't win. The issue I have is that each time I play against the AI I get the full conviction that while maybe (can't say) in MP the RNG works at it should, in solo mode doesn't and doesn't by design, to cover for how bad the AI is.

Well full conviction doesn't really describe it at this point. For me is as certain as the sun going up by the morning: the AI in this game clearly cheats based on a weighed RNG that consistently craps on the player and helps the AI. That's pretty much what it is at the moment and I wouldn't hold a grudge against the developer if this was an online game only where the AI is there to spar only....but this game had an EXPANSION (and a pretty costly one) based around a solo mode.

And what I think of a developer that sells a solo mode expansion without writing a proper AI, instead creating the challenge through not RNG but CNG (cheat number generator), I'll keep to myself :P.

[Ringtail♥]

I prefer the occam's razor aproach. Rigging dice takes work. Why do more unnecessary work if it's fine (arguably) as it is?

[Arne]

Originally posted by ramjbjb:

Certainly in singleplayer mode, it is. And whoever says otherwise it's either an apologist, clueless, or either. Sorry facts are just facts, and random events don't play out as they do in this game, at least not against AI

Unfortunately the things you are mentioned are not facts, which proove that the AI cheats. You observed something unlikely, I believe you that. However, considering, that you are one of many coaches who experienced this in one of his many games, the unlikely event doesn't sound so unlikely at all anymore. But I guess you know all of that because of this:

Originally posted by ramjbjb:

[...]I know my fair bit about statistics[...]

You seem to be quite invested in this otherwise you wouldn't post so much text about it. This is why I ask you: Do you want to make a real statistical test about the dice distribution of the AI? How such a test could be done: It is possible to reload a savegame several times, whereby the RNG is a different one each time. Thus, if you just let the AI do the same turn over and over again, you can see and write down, which results the same action of the AI has -> if this is then statistically significant, we would have something interesting to talk about

[ramjbjb]

Originally posted by Ringtail♥:

I prefer the occam's razor aproach. Rigging dice takes work. Why do more unnecessary work if it's fine (arguably) as it is?

Creating a weighed RNG system is far less work intensive than creating a proper AI that gives a decent player a challenge.

Hence witnessing the AI incompetence at the hour of playing, if we go with occam's razor, it's clear the RNG mechanic is seriously weighed towards the AI :P XD.

[Dode]

Originally posted by ramjbjb:

Creating a weighed RNG system is far less work intensive than creating a proper AI that gives a decent player a challenge.

The devs have categorically stated that's not what's happening.

[ramjbjb]

Originally posted by Arne:

Unfortunately the things you are mentioned are not facts, which proove that the AI cheats. You observed something unlikely

In the context of a fair, even, series of events spread about dozens of games played during more or less a whole week, yes, that'd be unlucky.

In the context of the kind of constant BS the AI pulls spread about dozens of games played during more or less a whole week, nope, that's not unlucky. That's just the cream on top of the pile of dung the AI's "RNG" is.

Yeah, what I posted aren't facts - sadly it's impossible to prove the system is botched unless we see the code first hand. But we can see the results, and sorry, the results the AI gets point out that "number generator" that system might be. But that it's not "RANDOM" at all, I'm as certain as that the sun shines.

[ramjbjb]

Originally posted by Dode:

The devs have categorically stated that's not what's happening.

And we know for sure no devs ever lie :).

[holy-death]

RNG is even, random. Random results tend to spread evenly through both sides. Nope, not in this game, and certainly not against the AI (don't care about multiplayer, again).

That's your problem right here - you expect your results to "even up". But the truth is; random results that even up over time are not random. Random is random. And it's "even" only in the sense of being equally random for both sides.

Like someone else has said on this forum: you shouldn't expect your luck to "come back", because dice doesn't owe you anything.

[Ringtail♥]

Originally posted by ramjbjb:

Creating a weighed RNG system is far less work intensive than creating a proper AI that gives a decent player a challenge.

Hence witnessing the AI incompetence at the hour of playing, if we go with occam's razor, it's clear the RNG mechanic is seriously weighed towards the AI :P XD.

Maybe so, though does it mean that there is two instances of different dice algorithms in the game? Hardly. Artificial handicap sound more like a conspiracy, though might be but very unprobable. I mean it has been done, i.e. in sport games but those are more AAA products from bigger companys with near monopoly on the market.

[ramjbjb]

Originally posted by holy-death:

That's your problem right here - you expect your results to "even up". But the truth is; random results that even up over time are not random. Random is random. And it's "even" only in the sense of being equally random for both sides

That's the essence of random. When I roll the dice 6 times I might get 3 sixes, 2 ones and 1 two. When I roll the dice 6.000 times, however, the results will be almost evenly spread.

Luck is not involved. Random is random. over a vast series of samples you'll see many different results. Over the ammount of games I've played vs the AI I should've seen many different results. Some games with the AI in god mode, some of me in god mode. Most of them with evenly spread luck.

Not the case. At all. Which means, it's not random.



Look, I've not made up my mind over 2-3 games, and a few dozen rolls. I've made up my mind over dozens of games and literally thousands of rolls. What the AI pulls off ALL THE TIME with it's rolls is plain to see that's not random, but seroiusly weighed towards one side.

[Arne]

Originally posted by ramjbjb:

[...] But that it's not "RANDOM" at all, I'm as certain as that the sun shines.

Like I said: You can let the AI do the same turn several times. I tested this for another thread which was very similar to this one. In this test, the AI tried to do a 1d-block vs my ball carrier. In the first attempt it worked out fine for the AI (defender stumbles) in the next approach it failed (skull). To be honest, I am too lazy to try it several times, I was just curious to know whether it is possible.

Just save & quit the game -> reload it -> let the AI do its turn -> press alt+f4 -> reload the game agian.

[DarthPhysicist]

So today the ai is an unbeatable cheater.... this is so tiring.

If the ai “cheats” to the level that warrants a post from you at this level, I hate to break it to you, but you must be incredibly bad at the game. Read guides, play with someone who will give you pointers, but accept the fact that blaming the dice for cheating just makes you look foolish. The ai is awful and can almost never win (first turn casualties even dont help it).