Blood Bowl 2

Blood Bowl 2

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scambammer Sep 14, 2018 @ 2:35am
Dark Elf Assassins
I think I already know the communities opinion on assassins but I figured I would throw the question out there anyhow since I have been messing around with them... Why not more assassin love? I know, I know they are av 7, they like to get targetted and subsequently die...and die...and die...
They are hard to develop and thus might hinder your progress for a few, if not a dozen, games..

But here's the thing..STAB. Stab is not a skill you can put on any old player, not even on doubles. Zara is widely considered to be one of the better star player inducements for the $ (probably more for the str 4 blodge but)...Zara can stab low av teams and just simply bypass hard to hit combos like blodgestep (sometimes).

I am just generally surprised that people dont take more assassins and focus on levelling them and giving them block, dodge, jump up (get that str+ and now you have a faster, more agile Zara of your very own!)..Now I am certainly not the best example as I stab ogres for fun rather than gnobs, bait my assassins and give them jump up first so that they get that ninja retaliation..

Is it just that the game is too low tv focussed? Is the hinderance simply too great to weather the storm of making Zaras? Surely a longterm project to make blitzers that have stab has some warranted plus side...
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Showing 1-15 of 45 comments
Uporcpine Sep 14, 2018 @ 2:47am 
Problem 1: Stab doesn't give SPP
Problem 2: You can't move after stab
Problem 3: Stab fails and the Assassin will get his face punched in next turn
Problem 4: Worthless against high AV teams yet expensive
Problem 5: Relativly slow, so shadowing doesn't work great

Probably could go on but you get the point.
scambammer Sep 14, 2018 @ 3:05am 
Originally posted by R_for_Rabbit:
Problem 1: Stab doesn't give SPP
Problem 2: You can't move after stab
Problem 3: Stab fails and the Assassin will get his face punched in next turn
Problem 4: Worthless against high AV teams yet expensive
Problem 5: Relativly slow, so shadowing doesn't work great

Probably could go on but you get the point.
while all of this is true, doesnt a stab blitzer sound like a great thing to have?
Dode Sep 14, 2018 @ 3:40am 
Originally posted by scambammer:
while all of this is true, doesnt a stab blitzer sound like a great thing to have?
Not with AV7 and MA6, no.
scambammer Sep 14, 2018 @ 3:41am 
this Dode...
Arlen Tektolnes Sep 14, 2018 @ 3:54am 
Zara isn't just an assassin though. 6438 Block, Dodge, Jump Up, Dauntless, Stab, Stakes.

She's a fairly reliable star player that excels at offence while also being difficult to take down. Stakes gives a +1 when stabbing anyone on Khemri, Necromantic, Undead or Vampire teams, making it far more effective than with an assassin. Against most other teams you won't really be using her to stab though, and ST4 + block + dauntless makes her a far more effective basher than an assassin.

Moving on from Zara, stabbing without stakes is usually only a good idea vs stunties because anything else has a really good chance of leaving your AV7 player stood right next to an opponent. The counterargument I see most often is that stabbing is a good way to knock down a blodge/sure hands player with the ball. It's really not. A stab vs AV7 has a 41.667% chance of succeeding. A one die block from a player with wrestle and tackle is 50%, 75% with a reroll (two die takes it to 75% / 93.75%).

So the only arguable value the player has is against stunties, and stabbing is still less likely to knock them down than a normal block from someone with either wrestle or block.

It actually takes a player with AV6 or lower to make stabbing more effective than a simple block (with block, vs dodge), at which point a stab is slightly better. But if you need to eke out a few extra % vs gnoblars or flings then you have bigger problems to worry about anyway lol

EDIT:

You mentioned trying to stab ogres. This has a 16.667% chance of success and on failure leaves your AV7 player stood next to someone with mighty blow who can quite possibly get a 3DB on you.

A red die block (with block) has 25% / 43.75% odds of knocking down an ogre, and 69.444% / 90.664% for getting a push or better.

A red die block with a totally unskilled player has a 44.444% / 69.136% chance of resulting in a push or better.

Blitzing an ogre with an unsupported level 1 Lineman is a much better move than stabbing them, and it's still a really bad move.
Last edited by Arlen Tektolnes; Sep 14, 2018 @ 4:06am
GFI_Joe Sep 14, 2018 @ 4:06am 
Originally posted by scambammer:
Originally posted by R_for_Rabbit:
Problem 1: Stab doesn't give SPP
Problem 2: You can't move after stab
Problem 3: Stab fails and the Assassin will get his face punched in next turn
Problem 4: Worthless against high AV teams yet expensive
Problem 5: Relativly slow, so shadowing doesn't work great

Probably could go on but you get the point.
while all of this is true, doesnt a stab blitzer sound like a great thing to have?

No, at least not at that price. Basically he is just a lineman with veery specific skill which sounds cool on paper but sucks in real game. What the main purpose of Stab skill? get hit on blodge pieces with armor 7 or less. Any str 3+ player with wreckle will do it better. Stab, if it works, goes directly to injury, but it doesn't guarantee you a CAS or even KO. And I think a lot of players forget about it. Most of the time it will be just a stun and you can't improve it with mighty blow. Now let's take a usual hit with mighty blow - you will break armor on 7+ vs 8+ with Stab (against av 7). But with mb, if you didn't use it on armor roll, you can add +1 to injury roll. As you can see mighty blow is better at both breaking armor and getting a cas. Only advance is that Stab doesn't involve rolling for a pow, just straight armor roll. For me it's not that good, because even if you didn't get a pow, you still have a chance to push opponent away so you won't get punched back next turn.
scambammer Sep 14, 2018 @ 4:19am 
@arlen and @Incognito...excellent feedback guys. Nice to have some numbers. Keep in mind tho this will not deter me from stabbing ogres ;p
chaosguy Sep 14, 2018 @ 9:03am 
Actually, yes they're fine, though not something to go out of your way for. Not intially a fan of assassins, i had a DE team that was not doing well, with casualties and a low bank roll meaning I needed to buy replacements between a series of games and couldn't afford to replace a killed WE. With a lot of trepidation due to Stab's limitations I wound up buying an assassin twice (thankfully I still had my runners) instead of a lineman. And let me tell you, spamming 2 stabs per round got me decent results. It's definitely NOT something I'd say is a main DE strat, but as far as desperation moves, it turned out really well.

Assassin's stats put them on par with a Runner for just 10K more, so they can fill that role as a back up if needed. The issue with stab is most players are unimpressed with only a 16% to go off, though when it does it's a guaranteed role on the injury table. If stab had a 33% to go off, we wouldn't even be having this convo since the community would be a lot more behind it. Still, if you're spamming it you'll get two or three successes in a match (per assassin). The important thing to understand is, stab isn't a strategy by itself. You use it practically as a bonus action on a target you are trying to bring down regardless (so you've already got 2 linemen on it). You open with stab-- hey if it goes off, bonus- and your linemen are now free to move on to other targets.
It's also far better than rolling two red dice. Even if your lineman has block and dodge, when your opponent picks, you're likely getting the shaft regardless. With stab, it is own separate roll that the opponent has no say in- if it fails youre no worse off in that 2 red dice situation, if it doesn't fail- it'll put you in a really strong position, when that strength 4/5/6 guy goes down to stab as your very first move of the round.

Edit; Also, saying Stab as a skill is detrimental because it doesn't give SPP is a nonseniscal statement. Dodge doesn't give SPP- should no one ever take that either? Like most other skills it's value is situational; dropping an Ogre with a single strength 3 guy can make as much a difference in a match as having a key player dodge away. And regardless of stab's success, once you put your Assassin on that Ogre-- your opponent HAS to deal with him, unless he likes the idea of his most expensive player taking a roll on the injury table. Your assassin might get the daylights knocked out of him- but again you called that shot, leaving your ball carrier or primary blitzer not a target.
Last edited by chaosguy; Sep 14, 2018 @ 9:37am
TheKillerNacho Sep 14, 2018 @ 11:23am 
Even if Stab gave SPP, they would still be trash.
Hairy Coo Sep 14, 2018 @ 11:59am 
Lol did someone just compare stab to dodge? I dont think I even have to explain why its dumb.

Assins are trash - slow, low armor, expensive and without block or dodge. Stab is kinda ok if most teams in ur league are av7 or less...but hey mb tackle would still be better.

They are just all rpund bad player in a team that is super expensive even when u dont run any crap positionals or skill builds. Competitive des cant afford it.

Stabedy stab stab is great for lulz in col i guess.
Dode Sep 14, 2018 @ 2:23pm 
Dodge doesn't give SPP- should no one ever take that either?
You don't dodge instead of blocking though, and blocking *is* a source of SPP. The lack of SPP for stabbing isn't the only reason not to take an assassin, but it is a consideration.
chaosguy Sep 14, 2018 @ 8:45pm 
Originally posted by Dode:
Dodge doesn't give SPP- should no one ever take that either?
You don't dodge instead of blocking though, and blocking *is* a source of SPP. The lack of SPP for stabbing isn't the only reason not to take an assassin, but it is a consideration.

Ah, youre not considering it correctly then. You would never use stab if you have a two dice option, or even a single dice option and a reroll burning a hole in your pocket (plus a good feeling about Nuffle).

The scenarios for stab are:
a) Using it as a scary roadblock for the enemy big guy. He HAS to get that stab off him before you DO get lucky, which at one in 6 is bound to happen at least couple of times per match. You don't even have to send him out injured for it to be of value, that fact that when it triggers its an autoknockdown from a STR 3 guy, is plenty of value on its own. (Especially if someone else has the Dirty Player skill).
b) A more serious effort to take down the enemy big guy or high STR target- for the DE with very limited access to STR skills like Guard, this typically means surrounding him with linemen, which is a lot of resources. Before you start rolling doubles from which ever lineman has the best shot, stab is a potential auto-injure which allows you to instead send those linemen after the ball carrier. Considering your alternative would be to just stick another lineman in the assassin's place, youre not losing anything in this situation, and if it does go off- bonus- & if it doens't you didnt risk rolling double skulls either.
c) A 'why not' move in a single dice scenario, where you don't want to risk losing the position your DE is holding by rolling a skull or counter-block. (And not have to worry about the enemy's Block ability, or Dodge, or Sidestep, or Wrestle... you get the idea...)
d) Pretty much any double red dice situation youve gotten into.

Its true that at 1in6 its not the most amazing thing ever, but then for a team that finds it hard to do anything about cpomb from high STR players except 'keep getting out of the way' its an option in the toolbox you'd be unwise to ignore.
Last edited by chaosguy; Sep 14, 2018 @ 8:48pm
licker34 Sep 14, 2018 @ 9:49pm 
Stop.

Just stop.

Assassins are pure garbage, anyone who thinks otherwise is a complete ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ moron.
chaosguy Sep 14, 2018 @ 10:52pm 
Nope. Wrong.
Dode Sep 14, 2018 @ 11:03pm 
Ah, youre not considering it correctly then. You would never use stab if you have a two dice option, or even a single dice option and a reroll burning a hole in your pocket (plus a good feeling about Nuffle).
Yes, I am. If you're not using it then it is a wasted skill.
The Big Guy is the "scary" one in almost all of those scenarios you describe.

Every player on the DE team is better value, if not plain better, than the assassin. His statline alone makes him worse than *all* of them: he's slower than anything but a lineman, and more lightly armoured than the lineman. Some people don't like the runner because of the AV, but at least he has MA7 to help justify him.
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Date Posted: Sep 14, 2018 @ 2:35am
Posts: 45