Chaos Minotaurs

[The Monkey]

Yes or no?

[holy-death]

The reason for asking about Juggernaut and Block combo is mostly because I didn't get Block first and consider if it's worth taking Block as my second pick, provided I even get a Double, or if should I take something else. Otherwise I will pick Claw.

You're right that Dodge is never a wasted skill in a way, but - like I said - it doesn't really help me building a killer. It would have been great for a Road Block or general brawler build though (somebody sticking to enemies). Probably with Stand Firm as a non-double skill (so they can't get rid of him).

[Street]

Originally posted by Hairy Coo:

- Pro is 50/50 crap shoot to do absolutely nothing. More so on a loner where you use pro to reroll Loner which is also 2 or 4+, and thats before you get to an actual action like blitz/block result. On a killer without Loner its a dicey choice - sure you can reroll things you normally woudnt, but you can end up rerolling a push into a skull as well - in other words, some things are safer not to reroll at all. Pro has some merit, its a bit more so on a Loner wild animal, but its a double on a player with plenty of good choices for normals.

I feel you don't understand the value of Pro on loner? You wouldn't ever use pro to try and reroll loner as that would imply you used a team reroll first. You don't use team rerolls at all on a pro loner since pro can be used on any roll and is the same odds of rerolling the action as a team reroll would on a loner, without using a team reroll!

[Hairy Coo]

Originally posted by Street:

Originally posted by Hairy Coo:

- Pro is 50/50 crap shoot to do absolutely nothing. More so on a loner where you use pro to reroll Loner which is also 2 or 4+, and thats before you get to an actual action like blitz/block result. On a killer without Loner its a dicey choice - sure you can reroll things you normally woudnt, but you can end up rerolling a push into a skull as well - in other words, some things are safer not to reroll at all. Pro has some merit, its a bit more so on a Loner wild animal, but its a double on a player with plenty of good choices for normals.

I feel you don't understand the value of Pro on loner? You wouldn't ever use pro to try and reroll loner as that would imply you used a team reroll first. You don't use team rerolls at all on a pro loner since pro can be used on any roll and is the same odds of rerolling the action as a team reroll would on a loner, without using a team reroll!

Oh, I understand it perfectly. Pro on a loner is like a cherry on a crap cake - it surely looks prettier this way.

[Hairy Coo]

Originally posted by holy-death:

The reason for asking about Juggernaut and Block combo is mostly because I didn't get Block first and consider if it's worth taking Block as my second pick, provided I even get a Double, or if should I take something else. Otherwise I will pick Claw.

You're right that Dodge is never a wasted skill in a way, but - like I said - it doesn't really help me building a killer. It would have been great for a Road Block or general brawler build though (somebody sticking to enemies). Probably with Stand Firm as a non-double skill (so they can't get rid of him).

Mino will never be as good of a killer as a developed killer goat. Killer needs Pile Own - and for mino it means that he will have to blitz to get up next turn and/or eat a boot in a groin. Big guys are always better standing upright.

[Yarrick]

it just depends on how you build the team to allow what role the mino has i mean man minos, are great i think if a chaos team does not take one then it makes an ogre teams life easier to contain the chaos teams, when they get claw and block etc they can be a solid piece in the chaos team, as for juggs its a great skill for a mino because of frenzy so theres that, now pro is a great skill i like it on my ogres but because we do not come with loner its more of a 3rd skill for me, but it has value to reroll those BH or in chaos's place WA

[licker34]

Yes, it is smart to plan your team build around beating Ogres...

Though mino is even more trash vs. Ogres because he's so easy for them to take out in the first place.

[Yarrick]

man any piece can be taken out with a well placed block, you just have to learn to position better is all, there are no wrong builds here its what coaches prefer or depending on ya playing style

[chaosguy]

Originally posted by Yarrick:

man any piece can be taken out with a well placed block, you just have to learn to position better is all, there are no wrong builds here its what coaches prefer or depending on ya playing style

Well said.

[holy-death]

Originally posted by Hairy Coo:

Mino will never be as good of a killer as a developed killer goat. Killer needs Pile Own - and for mino it means that he will have to blitz to get up next turn and/or eat a boot in a groin. Big guys are always better standing upright.

Minotaur has Frenzy though, which means he can attempt to land a hit twice, while Pile On depends on you being able to knock down the opposition in the first place.

There is also something to be said about how easy it is to build an effective Minotaur, versus effective Beastman.

Beastman needs Block, Claw, Mighty Blow and Pile On. That's 4 skills (3, if you forgo the Block). Minotaur requires only Block (or Juggernaut, if you can't get Block) and Claw. That's only 2 skills. Mighty Blow is built-in, so you don't need to spend a skill point for that.

[Hairy Coo]

Mate, its all a theorycraft, and a faulty one at that. Statistically, a non-loner with clawpomb will be way more effective in removing players than a loner big guy with mb-claw-frenzy. Especially considering the goat will be able to get both block and tackle/frenzy on normals. Play with a Mino if you like, don't try to prove that it is a move effective killer piece, because its not.

[holy-death]

Originally posted by Hairy Coo:

Mate, its all a theorycraft, and a faulty one at that.

It's not really faulty. It's you not understanding the point.

Originally posted by Hairy Coo:

Statistically, a non-loner with clawpomb will be way more effective in removing players than a loner big guy with mb-claw-frenzy. Especially considering the goat will be able to get both block and tackle/frenzy on normals.

Sure, a non-Loner with Block + Claw + Pile On + Mighty Blow could be more effective than Minotaur with Juggernaut/Block + Claw, but how long it takes until you get to that point? 2 skills more.

In order to get to level 2 (level up a freshly minted player) you need 6 SPP. To level 3: 16 SPP. Level 4 requires 31 SP. Level 5 is 51 SPP.

Each time you level up the amount of points you need to get doubles (more or less), which means it takes much longer time for a player to reach level 4 and 5, than it is for him to reach level 3. In fact, getting to level 4 (3 skills total) takes more than reaching level 2 and 3 combined.

Originally posted by Hairy Coo:

Play with a Mino if you like, don't try to prove that it is a move effective killer piece, because its not.

Here is what you don't understand: I said that it becomes effective in much shorter time span, so you can start getting maximum value out of it with much less investment. And that is objectively true.

[licker34]

Considering that Minos are reliant on CAS and MVPs to skill up while beastmen can also reliably score TDs (and throw the odd pass) I dispute that it's less of an investment to get your Minotard to be a killer compared to a beastman.

It is somewhat trivial to force feed one beastman TDs through the first 2-4 games and get him MB and Claw with Block to follow. It is not trivial to force feed a Minotard anything, unless you do not care about actually winning the game and only care about trying to skill up the Minotard.

In a 'normal' 1st game for Chaos you should be able to get two TDs on a beastman, and any odd CAS you may get can couple with an MVP to get you a first skill on someone. Give that guy MB and now you have a superior blitzer to the Minotard after one game. At worst (unless you have terrible luck) by the start of your third game you should have your MB player, and now you have the same killing power as your Minotard on an actually useful player.

The only advantage the Minotard has is starting with MB, but he cannot get block or tackle without a double. So even if you get him 3 normal skills you're looking at MB/Claw/Juggs (I guess) and Pile On (though that's a terrible skill for a WA player). 3 skills on your beastman is MB/Claw/PO (or Bock if you prefer) and he kills as well, but without the limitation of WA.

That beastman now is going to continue to skill up more and more quickly as the CAS rate will rapidly increase, and thus the efficiency of that player will dwarf anything a Minotard could ever dream of accomplishing without heavy reliance on MVPs to continue to boost spp growth.

I mean this just isn't even debatable. All chaos coaches who want to run their team to win understand this perfectly well and understand how to build the team from games 1-10 through games 20+. The Minotard coaches just want their ♥♥♥♥♥ and grins, which is of course completely fine, but Minotard Chaos is an inferior team. It's for fun, it's not for maximizing your win rate.

[holy-death]

Originally posted by licker34:

I mean this just isn't even debatable. [...] The Minotard coaches just want their ♥♥♥♥♥ and grins, which is of course completely fine, but Minotard Chaos is an inferior team. It's for fun, it's not for maximizing your win rate.

What we disagree over is a degree of optimization.

You treat anything that isn't the most optimal choice as trash. I see potential in skills that are less orthodox, depending on what you aim to achieve. Is it less optimal than what you advocate for? Sure, but it's not on the level of, let's say, taking Side Step for Black Orc as his first skill. Even I raised an eyebrow at that one.

[licker34]

Well look, if you don't care about maximizing your win rate then you are free to build whatever team and whatever players you want.

But it's not interesting to discuss that because who cares?

In any case, that's simply not the line many people here have taken in trying to 'defend' the inclusion of a minotard on a chaos team.

[holy-death]

Originally posted by licker34:

Well look, if you don't care about maximizing your win rate then you are free to build whatever team and whatever players you want.

Thing is that even when you're not going for the meta, you can still play for a win. As such you will be looking at skills that work well together. That's the entire point of the discussion about a Minotaur player: what skills to give him, if you decide to get him for your team.

Originally posted by licker34:

But it's not interesting to discuss that because who cares?

I'd argue that rolling for skills and overall team building is THE most important aspect of the game. And the most fun. But, yeah, when you have a stone-carved meta-guide, there is nothing to discuss really.

By the way, I think one of the big downsides for having random matchmaking is the fact that you never know whom you will run into, which takes away a bit from building your team to match potential challenges. I understand why is that so in a video game, but it's still a bit of a shame.

Originally posted by licker34:

In any case, that's simply not the line many people here have taken in trying to 'defend' the inclusion of a minotard on a chaos team.

Minotaur has it downsides, but there are also upsides. For me a Minotaur brings 6 ST on Blitz with Mighty Blow on default. For you it's 16% to waste a Blitz for doing nothing (or a turnover on Both Down & Skull). Beyond that it's purely about how we approach these facts.