How do you beat a Skaven team?

[Okanuk Vinn]

Between Blood Bowl: Chaos Edition and Blood Bowl 2 I have put 600+ hours into Blood Bowl, and I still have yet to come up with or read any sort of strategy on how to win a game against Skaven teams. I can hold my own against Chaos Dwarves, every kind of Elf, Orcs, Kislev, Lizardmen, etc, but every time I face off against a coach playing Skaven my opponent always manages to end the game with a 3+ point advantage! Losing by so much, so often, to a single team is both very frustrating and extremely discouraging. Rather than doing what I normally do though, sulking to myself while asking why Nuffle hates me so much that he decided to matchmake me with multiple Skaven coaches back-to-back, I instead figured I should do something far more productive, and just ask people who actually do know what they're doing how they keep pace with Skaven teams. So I figure I'll just be up-front and tell people about where I'm running into trouble, and hopefully this forum post will not only help me, but also any other coaches who're also having trouble beating the Ratmen.

1) How are you supposed to deal with Gutter Runners?

With their high AG, incredible MA, starting with the Dodge skill, access to mutations on doubles, and because a Skaven coach can field 4 of these players at once, stopping Gutter Runners is a nightmare! Often times I'll have Tackle and Diving Tackle on my players specifically to stop a Gutter Runner, and they can still frequently escape from my players tackle-zones with no trouble at all thanks to their high AG and skills like Leap. Now admittedly, that's pretty par for the course with AG teams. Leap is a very useful skill after all, I should know, Kislev is one of my favorite teams to play. It's this mobility combined with both their MA and their ability to get the ball from anywhere on the pitch that causes me no end of trouble. Because of their Mutation access on doubles they have access to skills that dramatically improve their odds of getting the ball. Take Big Hand for example, which allow them to ignore nearly every negative modifier when attempting to pick up the ball. From my experience, this essentially means that regardless of how much work you put in to securing it, if the ball is on the ground it'll be in a Gutter Runners hand by the end of my opponents next turn. I've seen Underworld teams pull similar tricks, but unlike the Underworld Goblins who are slower and easier to injure thanks to Stunty, average AG, and their difficulty getting General skills, Gutter Runners are both faster, more likely to pick up the ball, and surprisingly durable! How are you supposed to stop them?! Especially when Storm Vermin synergize so well with the Gutter Runners, which serves as a nice segway into my next question.

2) How are you supposed to deal with Storm Vermin?

These guys are just as ridiculous as the Gutter Runners! Sure a Skaven coach can only field two of them, but because they have access to the Claw/Mighty Blow/Pile On combo, getting them off the pitch needs to be your main priority otherwise your opponent will inevitably start removing your key players from the field! Unfortunately, the real playmakers on a Skaven team are the Gutter Runners, so it feels like I have to choose between losing to Skaven because I'm not limiting the Gutter Runners movement enough, or I lose because the Storm Vermin with the Claw/Mighty Blow/Pile On combo has sent most of my team to the injury box. At least when I'm facing Chaos or Necromantic teams I can counter their kill-happy strategies by either stalling the game, or trying to score and bringing some reserves into the match if the situation is getting too dicey. Unfortunately it seems as though employing either of these strategies against Skaven will practically ensure a loss. If I try to stall the game I'm giving the opposition coach a chance to steal the ball, and since Skaven Gutter Runners have such high MA and AG, if they do steal the ball then my drive is screwed. If I score at any time before half-time or the end of the match, Skaven will just pull off their insultingly easy One Turn Touchdown. The only time it's safe to score against Skaven is at the end of a half. I digress though, lets bring the discussion back to the Storm Vermin. Not only are the Storm Vermin excellent Killers, they are also some of the best Sackers in the game. A Storm Vermin with Horns/Tackle/Strip Ball is incredibly likely to force an opponent to drop the ball if they can get to the carrier. I wouldn't say that Storm Vermin are as good at sacking as a developed Kislev Blitzer or Wood Elven Wardancer, but they're certainly up there with the best of them, and when dropping the ball means that my opponent can score from nearly anywhere on the pitch, that's going to cause me no end of problems. So, how do I avoid losing my entire team to the Storm Vermin while also eliminating the threat that the Gutter Runners pose?

3) What formations should I use when facing Skaven?

I've tried using various formations to slow down an opposition's advance, but they don't seem to work for me when I'm playing against Skaven. Far too often what ends up happening is that I will form a 2-player deep wall to prevent a rat from running through my defensive line, but after a single Stun/KO/Injury an opportunistic Skaven will capitalize on the new weak point in my formation and leverage their MA to run a player past my defensive line and score. a 2-player deep wall doesn't seem to work when every player on the team has such a high MA. Are there any other formations I should try to employ against Skaven that may yield better results?

If I can think of any other questions to ask, I'll be sure to edit the post to include them, and if anyone else has any questions about how to beat Skaven please ask them! Hopefully a more experienced player can help us all become better Blood Bowl coaches. Also, apologies if this post got a bit ranty, I just find Skaven annoying to play against and I think that carried over a bit too much as I was writing this post.

[The Knight of Faerie]

My solution is typically "Hit hard, hit fast, hit often". Skaven have low AV, so if your team is in any way bashy you can probably clear several players. Even with them having reserves, I can often get a skaven team down to 5-6 players vs my full team. At which point scoring against them is rather easy, usually. Granted, skaven teams are likely to score several early touchdowns due to just how fast gutter runners are. And really, that's the skaven team's methodology. Score quick, score often, score enough times that you have trouble catching up. The problem is this strategy can fall apart quite easily if you set up your defensive screen right.

Stack tackle zones so that those gutter runners need to make multiple break away attempts, ideally with a penalty, to try getting through your defensive line. Don't just line up in their faces either. Instead try to force them to use their one blitz per turn as their only block. When you throw a block, don't follow up. Most of the time doing so will create an opening your opponent can take advantage of, and set you up for a block against your player. Likely one that wont go in your favor.

Oh, and if you have one... don't be afraid to fireball a large group of skaven. Due to their low AV, it's probably going to at least KO some of them. At the very least you're probably going to knock them down, thus creating an opening to go after the ball carrier.

And finally, try to remove the gutter runners from the pitch as soon as you can.

[Gamefever]

Tackle, lots of Tackle...Have a look at Dwarfs, each Lineman has Tackle...So Dodges become a nightmare.

Actually I think goblins are actually better at the Dodging game...Since they have stunty and AG3 plus dodge....Gobo's can literally blitz the ball carrier in a cage...
Here is why, they get a skill like wrestle....This means they can roll two red block dice against you, sure you pick the result but with Wrestle that means "both down" beats block and they have just accomplished their goal of getting the ball loose. If that same gobo gets strip ball, that would mean the only die roll to defend against them is skull.

Same goes for any AG Team...They just need a player with the right skill set and blam they can make a mockery of your cage. Especially with a re-roll.
For that matter a team such as Orcs, can use a Goblin rather than attempt to bash open a cage to get the ball carrier...This works well too.

Sure Hands skill,

For wrestle the defense would be to make sure that you tie up such a player. You cant let them near your ball carrier cause Wrestle beats Block...Strip Ball, should be a wasted skill cause your going to put Sure Hands on your Ball Carrier, its a must have to simply avoid losing turns when picking it up off the ground for crying out loud.

Then you have to consider....If we are playing a Bash team...Well then our game is about rolling blocks and crowd surfing opposition players off the board. A team like Skaven with their low armor value means we dont even need Claw to score some rolls on the injury table. (claw is not good against low AV teams).

Then we have to consider the Fouling game.
Especially against high value targets....We are thinking about developed teams...What have we done to prepare for this? We need a low TV player to take shots at removing that high value player every time they are on the ground. Its a matter of what does the target cost vs my fouling player worth....Also do you have extra players in the eventual case that yours is removed or bribes.

Finally...Why are these teams high TV in the first place?

At high TV the game is more about killing off the players than it is about winning games. This is why we have Mighty Blow/Claw/PileOn combo to even worry about.

If your playing open 1 off matches, you have to consider that the point may not be about winning but about crippling the other team.

If your in a league, its about letting those high TV teams get to shine before everyone rolls new teams.

[Gamefever]

I think its just because your playing the open matchmaker.
This is going to favor certain HIGH TV teams, that have potential for causing injuries simply because they are not made to re-roll their team after so many games or seasons.

There is only so much you can do in a those situations.
A lot of people might decide to play specific teams, I recall the major team to play was a developed Chaos Team, simply to maim and kill rather than score.

The Skaven set up you describe is simply the maim kill, score version...But they are super fragile.

[Snorri Nosebiter]

Originally posted by Gamefever:

Here is why, they get a skill like wrestle....This means they can roll two red block dice against you, sure you pick the result but with Wrestle that means "both down" beats block and they have just accomplished their goal of getting the ball loose. If that same gobo gets strip ball, that would mean the only die roll to defend against them is skull.

It also means that you have a 100k Gobbo.

[Yarrick]

Skaven are not that hard to beat the thing is to grind them and make them score early or if you recieve take the full 8 turns and then make them have to come at you if they score in 2 turns. Then you just grind out a 2-1 win or settle for a 1-1 draw if you can cover up nicely, i have more probs with elves because they have ag4 across the board... i never really focus on gutters unless i have the skills to take them out, i just focus on getting the numbers down so the gutters and blitzers are less effective or get put into a position that makes them have to do more risky plays, skaven team is my second team fav team so in the hands of someone that knows how to play them, yeah they can be quite nasty... its like elves, focus on the weaker players so that there good players have to work harder... and then you will see some better results

[Gamefever]

Originally posted by The Shoop:

Originally posted by Gamefever:

Here is why, they get a skill like wrestle....This means they can roll two red block dice against you, sure you pick the result but with Wrestle that means "both down" beats block and they have just accomplished their goal of getting the ball loose. If that same gobo gets strip ball, that would mean the only die roll to defend against them is skull.

It also means that you have a 100k Gobbo.

70K for gobo with wrestle.

Anyway whats the point in fretting about TV in OM, since more than likely your going to get pitted against high TV teams anyway.

[DarthPhysicist]

with your fists.

[Snorri Nosebiter]

Originally posted by Gamefever:

Originally posted by The Shoop:

It also means that you have a 100k Gobbo.

70K for gobo with wrestle.

Anyway whats the point in fretting about TV in OM, since more than likely your going to get pitted against high TV teams anyway.

100k with Wrestle and Strip Ball, as you said 'if that same Gobbo gets Strip Ball'.

It's not that I'm fretting about TV. It's just that it's a ridiculously expensive Gobbo who will be murdered within a game or two!

[Gamefever]

Originally posted by The Shoop:

Originally posted by Gamefever:

70K for gobo with wrestle.

Anyway whats the point in fretting about TV in OM, since more than likely your going to get pitted against high TV teams anyway.

100k with Wrestle and Strip Ball, as you said 'if that same Gobbo gets Strip Ball'.

It's not that I'm fretting about TV. It's just that it's a ridiculously expensive Gobbo who will be murdered within a game or two!

Ah, I see....Well then my response is exactly and then I dont have to worry about the TV bloat...I just have to be ready to let go.

My thinking about a gobo getting a level up is it happens, though its not predictable...More likely to get that goblin on an actual Goblin Team rather than Orcs.

I had it happen on my Orc Team and was like ah, probably only get to do it once so I slapped wrestle on him.

[Hairy Coo]

Git gud with positioning and execute your gameplan of scoring more than the rats. There is no magic answer to a broad question like this.

[DarthPhysicist]

Originally posted by Hairy Coo:

Git gud with positioning and execute your gameplan of scoring more than the rats. There is no magic answer to a broad question like this.

I believe I supplied it. How's that season 9 game comin along?...

[Hairy Coo]

Originally posted by DarthPhysicist:

Originally posted by Hairy Coo:

Git gud with positioning and execute your gameplan of scoring more than the rats. There is no magic answer to a broad question like this.

I believe I supplied it. How's that season 9 game comin along?...

Licker never wrote me back, and now RL caught up with me =(