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If your only Problem is rolling to many ones... well... play more until you get the games when you roll all sixes.
Take 6 Ogres, 0 rerolls and don't expect to ever win!
1) Don't take Block as your first doubles skill on an Ogre, take Pro instead. The only advantage that Ogres have over other teams is that they can field 6 Big Guys simultaneously, so you need to do everything in your power to reduce the unreliability inherent to Big Guys and leverage their vastly superior Strength. If you roll a second doubles skill on an Ogre, it's also a good idea to get the Leader skill for another reroll that doesn't inflate your TV nearly as much and can't be stolen by opponents who induce a Halfling Master Chef, which would otherwise be a pretty good tech against dice reliant teams such as Ogres.
2) Don't treat Gnoblars like players, treat them more like a resource that you spend to perform certain actions. Gnoblars are so cheap and replaceable that it's extremely advantageous to take every opportunity that you can to foul with them, throw them into opposition players to injure them, or simply harass your opponent with.
3) There are two development paths for Gnoblars, dedicated foulers and blockers. A dedicated fouler should get the Sneaky Git skill so that they don't have to worry about getting ejected if a boot in the head isn't enough to injure an opposing player, and if they get doubles they should also get the Dirty Player skill to increase the odds that they'll injure someone. Dedicated foulers should be immediately sacked from the team if they survive to get a third skill, or if by their second level up they can't roll a doubles for Dirty Player. A blocker on the other hand wants to get Diving Tackle and ideally wants to roll doubles to get Block, the logic here being that your opponent can't safely move until they throw block dice against your Gnoblar(s), and even though nearly everyone can get a 3 dice block against a Gnoblar, if you have Blodge the only roll that will knock a Gnoblar down is Defender Down and occasionally Defender Stumbles if your opponent has the Tackle skill. Like the dedicated fouler though, blockers should also be fired if they survive long enough to get their third level-up, or if they can't get Block by the time they get their second skill.
4) Remember that when the situation is getting desperate the Throw Teammate skill gives you the ability to attempt one turn touchdowns! You'd be surprised how often this play will work out in your favor when the chips are down, provided of course that you're neither standing in nor throwing a Gnoblar into a tackle zone.
5) When you have the ball, cage with your Ogres! It is extremely difficult to break into a cage when the cage is formed with STR 5 players!
6) This idea may sound a tad bit mad, but have you considered making your Ogre your dedicated ball carrier instead of your Gnoblars? It sounds like crazy talk, it probably is crazy talk, but honestly the ball is far safer in an Ogres hands than a Gnoblars! It's very difficult to sack the ball from a STR 5 player, especially if you're following tip #5 and caging with the other Ogres on your team as well!
7) While getting Pro on your Ogres should take precedent over everything else, it's extremely important that you eventually get Break Tackle as well! Until you get Break Tackle, marked Ogres are essentially useless, and on a team where your only advantage is having access to six Ogres simultaneously, that's very bad for you!
8) Even though Ogres start with AV 9 and Thick Skull, opposition players with skills like Claws, Pile On, Mighty Blow, etc, are the players that you want to foul the most! I can't stress enough that the only advantage Ogre teams have is the ability to field six Big Guys at once, and if you lose Ogres then you're likely going to lose the game too!
I hope that this advice was of some help, and wasn't too rambly. Best of luck with your Ogre team!
Not sure if your friend plays multiplayer or not, but if he does I hope that the opponents that he does win against have a therapist on hand who they can speak with. Losing to Halflings is embarrassing, losing to a Gnoblars only team will mentally break a man.
its a good skill but to me block or frenzy is where you wanna build the ogres dodge is also good with break tackle as well good synergy and you wanna make sure you have built in rerolls on things with ogres to me BT is seldom used only to chase down and not be outta position and not to be tied down, to me its all about the blocks as we have MB so you wanna hit as much as possible and with 3 dice blocks as possible, this is where block is ya friend, just makes those 2 dice blocks way safer, and even if you come up against a block piece well you get another chance next turn but its not a turnover. you will end up building different ogres over time because of stat increases etc and doubles, take the doubles where you can and build cage breakers like the st6 BT guy a pass ogres an ag4 snotling all these give us edges in things that coaches will forget about, its all in the build to get wins. and block helps alot to keep the ogres upright... the good thing is to keep experimenting and find what works for u, you can build them anyway u like.
As a relatively successful Ogre coach (about 50% win rate), this is actually terrible advice.
1) "Don't take Block as your first doubles skill on an Ogre, take Pro instead." and then Leader
-> If you're going to play Ogres, you have to abandon the idea that you will be able to play them all every turn. You have to plan with Bonehead in mind, and keep your rerolls for important actions and blocks that would lead to turnovers. What you need with Ogres is reliable blocks and defensice skills. So you take Block. Leader on an ogre isn't a bad idea, so why not as a third double, but dodge is just too good with break tackle.
New ogre coaches often feel like they need more rerolls, but it's because you don't use rerolls in the same way with Ogres. Pro is a waste of tv.
2) Gnoblars are a ressource, as every player in the game. That doesn't mean you should cause the extinction of their species by glueing them to opponent players or throwing them on every occasion. You have a limited number of gnoblars on the field, so you have to ponder when it's best to stick them to enemy players. Two diving tackle gnoblars next to an opponent ball carrier is brilliant. Otherwise, it's probably not worth it.
3) Most ogre coachs would disagree entirely with putting doubles on gnoblars, because of the tv bloat. And even when you take doubles, it's generally better to take dirty player then kick, and usually you wo'nt have more than that. Only develop gnobalrs as foulers if they already have dirty player. Sneaky git isn't a good skill on its own. Block is ok but less important than kick and sneaky git imo. Depends if you want to foul or not.
There is also one other popular gnoblar build: the runner. Sprint, sure feet, awesome with +AGI or +MA. Can also take Catch and Diving Catch in theory but they don't live that long. One or two runners is nice to have in an Ogre team, because movement is your number one problem.
4)Throwing team mates with ogres suck because snots land on 4+ and have MA5. You can only attempt an OTTD if the ball lands in the right part of your half in the first place (remember, only one pass per turn and throw team mate is a pass), and then your gnoblar is launched far enough in the opponent half. You should definitly try OTTD with Ogres, but it has a very low success rate compared to any other team able to thrown teammates.
5) Caging with Ogres is generally a terrible idea, because you're using 4 of your 6 players to make a cage... if they don't decide to bonehead in the first place.
Ogres should be used to screen, to immobilize other players, or to make a side cage. Ogres are great at side cageing thanks to sidestep and you only need two ogres to make a proper side cage while the other keep the opponent team busy.
If you really want to make a cage, it's better to use DT gnoblars. Your Ogres are much needed everywhere else, you can't afford to use more than 2 or 3 for a cage.
6) The ogre ball carrier isn't a mad idea at all, in fact it's how you should play against most other teams. Vs. Agility teams a gnoblar ball carrier is too easy to blitz, and vs. bash teams you need as many ogres as possible to fight back (though carrying with a gnoblar is not always a bad idea).
If you're carrying and cageing with Ogres that's 5 ogres that don't do anything else on the field. You may be safe for one turn (probably not), but how are you going to move? Ogres are still blockless by default. A STR3 block player with a reroll can still put it down 44% of the time with two red dice. Once again, a ST5 cage may sound frightening, but it's not that good. Not as good as a dwarf cage for example.
7) Break Tackle is indeed the best non-double that Ogres can take. You need the mobility. Block is still better than Pro.
8) There's nothing Ogres can do vs. claw heavy teams, except trying to avoid them. Try to stay at relatively low team value - sack any gnoblars that takes more than one level, sack all ogres who don't get doubles after their second skill. If you can't avoid them, try to occupy or kill their claw players. Pick Block and not Pro because it's not only better for block, it's also better for survival, and ogres on the ground are useless.
I can't stress enough that on doubles, you take block and nothing else (except maybe on an ogre ball carrier with +agi and breack tackle, in which case I would consider dodge). A 2-dice block without block has more than one chance out of ten to cause a turnover, still about 6% with pro, and only 3% with block. A one-die on a blockless ogre has a 50% chance to put it down, 33% if the ogre has block.
You need reliable blocks more than a better chance that your ogre will play, and if you need an ogre to play you will use a team reroll anyway.
Fair points, however I would now like to retort your points. As a coach who has a mixed record of either going undefeated for around 6-8 games as Ogres (Spit-Roasting Savages, although I'm not sure if the replays are still on Cabalvision since that team was played a few seasons ago), or failing completely with them, trust me in this regard. I am fairly well aware for what does and doesn't work.
1) Fair enough, I agree with you that getting block first is a valid strategy. Having more reliable blocks is always a good thing, however I still stand by my opinion that Pro is a good first Skill to get on your Ogres. To prove my point, I would like to bring the discussion back to the probability of different actions succeeding or failing.
Because Ogres are ST 5, you will very consistently get 2-dice blocks against your opponent. A 2-dice block without the block skill only has a 1/100 chance to fail if you have a reroll on hand, and if you don't have a reroll on hand your odds of suffering a turnover on a block jumps up to 1/9, comparatively the odds of an Ogre triggering Bonehead are 1/6. While activating Bonehead does not cause a turnover like rolling skulls does, it is important to note that Bonehead has the potential to be far more crippling.
You need to manage Bonehead carefully, yes that's true, but you don't win a game of Blood Bowl JUST by parking Ogres next to a group of problematic players and leaving him be for a few turns. You win by picking up the ball and moving it into the endzone, breaking through your opponents defense in the process, and in order to do that you have to take action. That's the reason why I think Pro is more useful than Block. Yes I could use my Team Reroll on an Ogre who's about to Bonehead, and sometimes it's worthwhile to do so, but Team Re-rolls are a very limited resource. I'd rather use the Team Reroll on actions that actually do carry a risk of causing a turnover, like blocking an opponent or picking up the ball! Block is a useful skill yes, but what's the point of having it if there's a 1/6 chance that I will not be able to leverage it? Furthermore, why would I want to use a Team Re-roll on a failed Bonehead skill when there's no obvious penalty for failing the roll? Think about it, sure if I get Block the odds of failing a 2-dice block without a reroll on hand is 1/33, but there's still a very real possibility that I completely fumble the 1/33 chance and I just used my reroll fruitlessly when I could've alternatively looked for other opportunities elsewhere on my turn. Meanwhile with Pro, I can use Pro on my failed Bonehead roll and still use my Team Reroll to protect myself from a bad roll of the block dice.
Think about this, say that I want to Blitz an opponent and I have two Ogres on hand, one with Block and one with Pro. If I Blitz with the Ogre who has Block and he Boneheads, I can use a Team Reroll for a 1/6 chance of continuing my Blitz as normal and then still have a 1/33 chance of not fumbling on my Blitz. Conversely though if I use the Pro Ogre and he Boneheads he has a 50% chance of rerolling the 1/6 Bonehead result and possibly carrying out the Blitz as normal, then he has a 1/9 chance of fumbling the Blitz, but I still have my reroll on hand to further decrease the odds of failure to 1/100. As you can see, while the odds of actually moving are SLIGHTLY lower than if I used a Team Reroll (1/10 odds according to BBTactics), if I do move then the odds that I can safely block my Blitz target are significantly higher because I saved the Team Reroll for the occasion.
2) I will concede this point, I can't really argue with it.
3) True the Gnoblar development paths I've offered are pretty bloaty, but lets be honest, if you get any skill on a Gnoblar every development path is going to be a bit bloaty compared to the utility you gain due to how awful Gnoblars are as players. With Titchy, MA5, ST1 and AV5, they're just horrible players. Because of their deficiencies, they are only good at a select few things, the development paths I've suggested are just the roles that I feel Gnoblars are best suited for if you really want to develop a Gnoblar player. As you have pointed out though, there are other builds that also work well enough, and it's also a perfectly valid strategy to just sack them the moment they get their first level-up. I just wanted to share the builds that I most enjoyed and had the most success with.
4) Again, I can't dispute your point. I was merely pointing out that the option is there, and that coaches shouldn't be afraid to attempt an Ogres 1TTD if it's advantageous to do so, a statement that you seem to agree with to a limited extent.
5) I see where you're coming from, but again I must disagree. Because Ogres are ST5, getting the ball is extremely difficult, and becomes almost impossible once you get Guard on a few of your Ogres. With 2 assists, any player with an average ST score of 3 will be rolling 3-dice uphill blocks to knock down your carrier! Combine a well-defended ball-carrier with strong cage corners, and the ball is as secure as it could possibly be!
Compare an Ogre cage to a Snotling cage though, and it is honestly laughable how terrible a Snotling cage is. They don't have normal access to Guard, and thus if they're marked, they don't provide any assists. This means that if a opposing player with ST3 can cage-dive into your cage, they can likely throw a 2-dice uphill block, which needless to say is significantly more likely to work. This wouldn't be too problematic, after all cage-diving is a very risky play for most teams, until you realize that Gnoblars Titchy skill does not impose the -1 modifier that is usually applied when a player attempts to dodge through a tackle zone! This makes cage-diving significantly less risky for your opponent, and thus leaves your ball-carrier far more vulnerable, especially if the opposition players have Dodge and/or Break Tackle! I understand that Titchy can be completely offset by DT, that's why I recommended a Blodge+DT build for Gnoblars in point #3 of my original post, but I'd still rather have my Ogres cage than my Gnoblars. The Ogres are just better for caging than the Gnoblars.
6) As mentioned in point #5, the ball is very safe and secure if you use your Ogres to cage. If you're playing a developed Ogre team with Guard on your Ogres, a 3-dice uphill block is too risky to attempt in any but the most desperate of cases, with or without Block. If you're playing a fresh Ogre team, an Ogre cage is still vastly preferable to a Gnoblar cage because of the Titchy feature that Gnoblars have.
As for how to free your ball carrier after the opposing team dogpiles on top of your cage, the good thing about a basic cage is that you have multiple avenues of escape. In order to stop your ball carrier from moving up field your opponent needs to have eight players at minimum basing the corners of your cage, and even that doesn't fully guarantee that your ST5 Ogres will be locked down since you'll likely still have 2-dice blocks somewhere that you can throw. Needless to say that's a lot of resources for your opponent to commit to the possibility of slowing you down, and you still have an Ogre and multiple Gnoblars on stand-by to provide aid wherever it's needed, in this case freeing your ball carrier and simultaneously locking down your opponents players who tried to stop your advance. If an opposing team really wanted to stop an advancing Ogre cage they'd have two much better options. The first option would be to wait until an Ogre on the corner of the cage Boneheads, which again is less likely with Pro, or the second option is to create a 2-player deep wall to slow you down until an opening presents itself, which is a strategy that works very reliably on pretty much every team in Blood Bowl.
7) We're pretty much in complete agreement here in regards to Break Tackle, and our debate in favor or against Pro has already been covered extensively in point #1, so lets move on.
8) Again I don't disagree with you on this. If you can avoid a Claw player you should do so for as long as possible, unfortunately if your opponent has a Claw player there's no way you can avoid them indefinitely, hence why I recommend focusing some of your attention onto killing those players. The longer opposition players with Claw remain on the pitch, the more opportunities your opponent has to throw your team into a death spiral, and in a game all about risk-management preventing a death-spiral should be one of your top priorities!
Apologies if this got a bit long-winded in places or I didn't comprehensively elaborate on my own points, but it's late where I am, and I've spent a good few hours writing and re-writing this response.
EDIT: WHY AM I STILL WRITING AND REWRITING THIS COMMENT?! SOMEONE HELP ME! FREE ME FROM THIS RESPONSE POST!
@Okanuk Vinn
Hey bud i just wanted to know what is your coach name in game and what comp so i can look up your ogre team and see the stats goblin spy the Pro build is very interesting i have not exactly tryed it but it looks like i can add that to the way i play ogres already, i have about a 40% win rate over all in about 700+ games so not great but still above the norm.