Clarification on catch skill

[kimo]

Just a quick question. Can you use catch multiple time on the same player during the same turn? Or is it like dodge, one use only. The case is the following :
gave the ball to a catch piece, fumbled it (snake eye), but another of my player catched it instead on the rebound. Now I have the option to pass the ball. If I pass to the catch guy, can he use catch skill again?
Thx !

[DarthPhysicist]

It's like dodge. Any skill reroll on a given player only works once per turn.

Edit I stand corrected.

[Dode]

Originally posted by DarthPhysicist:

It's like dodge. Any skill reroll on a given player only works once per turn.

Can you quote where the rules say that? Certainly any single roll may only be rerolled once, and the Dodge skill description specifies once per turn, but Catch does not.

[Hairy Coo]

Originally posted by Dode:

Originally posted by DarthPhysicist:

It's like dodge. Any skill reroll on a given player only works once per turn.

Can you quote where the rules say that? Certainly any single roll may only be rerolled once, and the Dodge skill description specifies once per turn, but Catch does not.

That would be weird by the logic of the game. All other skills are just allowed one in-built rr per turn (i.e. dodge, sure hands, feet etc), or are there other exceptions?

[Street]

Catch is different to dodge, sure feet, are hands etc. In that the latter skills are always a turnover if the built in reroll fails. If the catch skill reroll fails, it can still scatter to an adjacent player and be caught by them, this not a turn over and therefore giving another chance to use the catch skill that turn.

[kimo]

I would like a source too, one way or another.

Unfortunately, during the game the skills didn't came in action the second time, so I don't know how the rule is implemented in bb2. But we were all curious about how it is supposed to work.

The only clue I had so far is on bbtactics where it says:
"you get two chances of trying to catch the ball any time when making a catch roll." which would suggest that you can use it several time. But it's not clearly stated, and I don't know from where this rules come from.

https://www.reddit.com/r/bloodbowl/comments/2nczgd/using_catchskill_several_times_per_turn/
found this too, (saying that it can be used only once per turn) but only a response without quoting any rules.

[export]

This is the description of the Dodge skill
Dodge
(Agility)
A player with the Dodge skill is adept at slipping away from opponents, and is
allowed to re-roll the D6 if he fails to dodge out of any of an opposing player’s
tackle zones. However, the player may only re-roll one failed Dodge roll
per turn. In addition, the Dodge skill, if used, affects the results rolled on
the Block dice, as explained in the Blocking rules in the Blood Bowl book.

Catch
(Agility)
A player who has the Catch skill is allowed to re-roll the D6 if he fails a
catch roll. It also allows the player to re-roll the D6 if he drops a hand-off
or fails to make an interception.

so yes you can use catch on one player multiple times during one turn
source is LRB6
http://www.bloodbowlgamers.com/downloads/LRB6.pdf

[Dode]

Originally posted by Hairy Coo:

That would be weird by the logic of the game. All other skills are just allowed one in-built rr per turn (i.e. dodge, sure hands, feet etc), or are there other exceptions?

Many skills can be used more than once a turn. Those which cannot be used more than once a turn specify that is the case. Just because this is a reroll doesn't make it different.

[DarthPhysicist]

Well I stand corrected then. Apparently the coding shared my interpretation of it, the spirit of the rule it seemed. I guess the scattered halfling carrying the ball off an opponent isnt a turnover either by a literal reading of the rules.

[Dode]

Then the coding is wrong: it's a bug. I've not tested it though.

Originally posted by DarthPhysicist:

I guess the scattered halfling carrying the ball off an opponent isnt a turnover either by a literal reading of the rules.

Not sure what you're describing here.

[Street]

Originally posted by DarthPhysicist:

I guess the scattered halfling carrying the ball off an opponent isnt a turnover either by a literal reading of the rules.

Losing possession of the ball or failing to pick the ball up are the ball handling related turnovers.

A failed pickup however, even if caught by an adjacent teammate is a turnover.

[DarthPhysicist]

The rules say if you are Knocked Down and lose the ball it's a turnover.

1. A player on the moving team is Knocked Down (being injured by the crowd or being Placed Prone is not a turnover)

Here is the specific instance.

http://www.mordrek.com/goblinSpy/web/game.html?mid=10003d44ef
(see turn 6).

The player has the ball, is thrown and hits another player. He scatters off and passes his armor. but is placed prone (as opposed to knocked down) per the Right Stuff skill. He never rolls for landing check so

7. A player with the ball is thrown or is attempted to be thrown using Throw Team-Mate and fails to land successfully (including being eaten or squirming free from an Always Hungry roll)

does not apply as he never failed to land. Per right stuff:

If the landing roll is failed or he landed on another player during the throw he is Placed Prone and must pass an Armour roll to avoid injury

Landing on another player is seaparate from failing to land and is never checked.
My halfling could then stand back up and grab the ball. I reported this as a bug as it felt like it should be a turnover, but by the literal reading of the rules, I wasn't sure.

Why I bring this up is that by a literal reading of the rules, what the game does is fine. But if you take the spirit of the rule, it would be a turnover. I honestly don't care which way it goes.

[Street]

Originally posted by DarthPhysicist:

Snip.

Looks like a bug to me. Losing possession of the ball (it going to the floor or opposite teams hands) any point during your turn is a turn over. The wording of throw teammate and right stuff do not overrule this.

[DarthPhysicist]

Yet turnovers are specifially called out as:

1. A player on the moving team is Knocked Down (being injured by the crowd or being Placed Prone is not a turnover unless it is a player from the active team holding the ball; e.g. skills like Diving Tackle, Piling On and Wrestle count as being Placed Prone) or

2. A passed ball, or hand-off, is not caught by any member of the moving team before the ball comes to rest or

3. A player from the moving team attempts to pick up the ball and fails (note: failing a catch roll, as opposed to a pick up, is by itself never a turnover) or

4. A touchdown is scored or

5. The four-minute time limit for the turn runs out or

6. A pass attempt is fumbled even if a player from that team catches the fumbled ball or

7. A player with the ball is thrown or is attempted to be thrown using Throw Team-Mate and fails to land successfully (including being eaten or squirming free from an Always Hungry roll) or

8. A player is ejected by the referee for a foul.

Nowhere does it simply say "possession is lost" which I would agree is the spirit of the rule. Modern games have gotten so hyped up about literal rules readings that this stuff starts to matter.

None of those occured in my example, and as such, the game let the play stand.

Edit: On a closer read, placed prone being in the qualifying text of 1 would kick in I guess.

[Street]

Good point. Been awhile since I felt the need to look over each turnover rule.

I would say reading through all of right stuff skill. It should be interpreted as landing on another player is counted as an automatic failed landing roll. But admittedly it isn't worded clear enough to guarantee that is what should happen.

Edit: Yes point 1 does seem to cover it and does also cover any situation I can think of that would keep the idea of losing possession of the ball during your turn always a cause for a turnover.

[DarthPhysicist]

A friend of mine had a suggestion that the rules be rewritten with an eye to "state of the ball" which would be clearer. The ball is either "loose" or "possessed". Anything that causes a team in "possession" of the ball to lose possession would be a turnover. A ball in motion is always in possession, even during a pass as it is under control. This just applies a bit of American football spin that would actually sum up all those rules into one rule that is easy to understand. I'm not sure why modern rules spell out every little detail like a legal tome. Simply state the general rule, and a means of arbitration (like the roll off rule in necromunda).