Bank Rule

[ajmurphy1986]

Are we getting rid of this anytime soon? Stunty teams are gonna get screwed with that and tvplus. Maybe keep it in rez leagues? Seems like it would actually serve a purpose there

[The Knight of Faerie]

which bank rule are you talking about?

[Kejiruze]

That above 150k adds to your TV. It was meant to stop high TV teams throwing in money to get inducements. That's cause Cyanide couldn't programme an inducements phase.

It's had the obvious consequence of nerfing teams at high TV if they lose several players in one game.

[Dode]

Originally posted by Kejiruze:

It's had the obvious consequence of nerfing teams at high TV if they lose several players in one game.

That was also the intention.

[VoodooMike]

Originally posted by "Kejiruze":

That above 150k adds to your TV. It was meant to stop high TV teams throwing in money to get inducements. That's cause Cyanide couldn't programme an inducements phase.

No, it was not meant to do that - in fact, it encourages teams with large treasuries to throw money in to get inducements rather than let their treasury bloat their TV.

Originally posted by "Kejuruze":

It's had the obvious consequence of nerfing teams at high TV if they lose several players in one game.

In theory it was meant to.. in practice it does ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ to hold down the teams it was meant to hold down. The implementation in BB2 is also wrong... in their attempts to streamline it they've actually made it a system that is easily exploited: since the first 150k is not counted toward TV, and funds added to inducement pool are not ALSO given to the other team (since the overage is added to TV anyway, meaning they get inducements for your gold in excess of 150k anyway) you can dump 150k into inducements without raising your TV for the match.

I hate the bank rules. All of them... even the correct ones. The new BB2016 ruleset doesn't use bank rules OR the petty cash rules.. you can just throw as much gold as you want in and screw the other guy. I don't think that's a good idea either, but... it's what they went with.

[Kejiruze]

@Mike but if money never added to TV, and there was an inducements phase that would be better surely?

[Dode]

Originally posted by Kejiruze:

@Mike but if money never added to TV, and there was an inducements phase that would be better surely?

You mean the old Petty Cash? Yes, it would be better imo. Cyanide were adamant they didn't want it, though, and BB2016 got rid of it.

Combine it with Expensive Mistakes instead of Spiralling Expenses and it'd be great, I think.

[Kejiruze]

@dode yeah I always liked the way fumbbl did it when I started playing in 2008.

Any idea why they're so dead against it? Seems perfect in its simplicity?

[The Knight of Faerie]

Originally posted by Kejiruze:

@Mike but if money never added to TV, and there was an inducements phase that would be better surely?

How would it be better? No, really. I'm curious.

With the current system if you bank too much gold, you start losing out on earnings after the match due to spiraling expenses. The coach saving money can always decide to spend their gold on inducements. If anything, hording gold in case your team gets smacked down hard by Nuffle gives your opponant a boost due to them recieving a good amount of petty cash. And if you did decide to spend a thousand gold on inducements, your opponant probably got a large amount of petty cash for inducements due to your gold hording.

It might not be perfect, but I'm not sure how it's exploitable as badly as is claimed. Or maybe it's because I am not the type of person to look for how you can exploit the rules.

[Kejiruze]

Spiralling expenses and banking too much cash are not related.

Spiralling expenses kicks in when your TV passes a certain point, and increases incrementally.

With an inducements phase any money one player spent would be given to their opponent.

I like the idea of having a tonne of cash in case 3 pieces get retired after one game, it rarely happens but I have dealt and received those sort of injuries.

I don't think the bank rule is exploited, I just think it's ♥♥♥♥. Your opponent not being gifted the money you drop on inducements is certainly exploited, as I regularly see a wizard being bought for an important game, which if your opponent is equal TV, or only slightly lower they are then extra ♥♥♥♥♥♥ if they don't have the cash too.

[dv]

Originally posted by Kejiruze:

Spiralling expenses and banking too much cash are not related.

They are not? I thought they were.

Originally posted by Kejiruze:

Spiralling expenses kicks in when your TV passes a certain point, and increases incrementally.

Spiralling expenses kicks in when your TV, which includes your gold, passes a certain point, and increases incrementally.

[Kejiruze]

Semantics spespantics.

OK you got me, but Spiralling expenses kicks in at 1750 TV? With 10k increments every 150k? For one to impact the other you'd need to be hoarding a tonne of cash.

And as I've said, I don't think money should add to TV, so this wouldn't be an issue.

[VoodooMike]

Originally posted by "Kejiruze":

@Mike but if money never added to TV, and there was an inducements phase that would be better surely?

More fair, certainly. There's a belief among some people that the robust/bash rosters ability to stockpile cash is somehow a big part of their being over-represented in open play. I think that's total garbage, myself, and we see that it is from BB2... so, I'm not sure what the point of bank rules ends up being beyond simplifying the inducement process.

Originally posted by "Kejiruze":

Any idea why they're so dead against it? Seems perfect in its simplicity?

Petty cash isn't simple... it's clumsy and counterintuitive... but it's the most fair of the discussed systems. The other one that'd be fair is not letting people add from their treasuries at all.

Originally posted by "The Knight of Faerie":

It might not be perfect, but I'm not sure how it's exploitable as badly as is claimed. Or maybe it's because I am not the type of person to look for how you can exploit the rules.

You don't see how being able to adjust your TV by 150 before the match begins might be considered an exploit, when that 150 won't be taken into account for your opponent's inducements and wasn't taken into account in the matchmaking?

Given that cash in excess of 150k does contribute to TV, it is teams that accumulate cash fastest that are most likely to dump it into inducements, and winning teams collect cash fastest. It results in the TV underdog being most likely to face that sudden increase in TV in their opponent... widening the gaps in the match.

Originally posted by "Kejiruze":

I don't think the bank rule is exploited

It is. Back when we were all originally complaining about it, I checked the data and it was something like 17% of all matches involved one side putting cash into inducements, below the 150k mark, but higher than the opponent's total treasury... it was a phenomenon I was calling "unanswerable cash".

[Kejiruze]

@Mike good to know we broadly agree, you always seem to know your shizzle.

Your last quoting of me, that's a lack of inducement phase problem again as well as a bank rule problem?

[VoodooMike]

Originally posted by "Kejiruze":

Your last quoting of me, that's a lack of inducement phase problem again as well as a bank rule problem?

We don't lack any of the phases we previously had. We still have the opportunity to contribute treasury cash to the match... and we still have an "inducement phase" where we purchase inducements with our inducement pool. The difference is simply that your inducement pool no longer counts as altering the TV of either team for the match.

The "real" bank rule counts ALL gold toward your TV... all of it. There's no freebie 150k. What the real bank rule does is give you the option of banking up to 150k and not counting banked cash toward TV... but likewise, banked cash cannot be used. At the end of each match you have the option to deposit or withdraw from your bank.

So, the real version of the bank rules counts all treasury gold as TV... so you can dump in as much treasury as you want for inducements - it already counts against you so who cares? The problem with BB2's version is that 150k of it does NOT count against you, but you can still dump that into the match.

The only benefit of the real bank rule is that regardless of money you do or do not add to inducements, the TV you went into the match with is the TV for the match regardless... the old petty cash rules let you alter that TV and then recalculated all the inducement pools based on your altering of it. The new cyanide bank rule is like... the worst of both worlds.

[VoodooMike]

Here's what BB2 should do instead of either Petty Cash or any version of Bank Rules:

First, treasury should NOT count toward TV. I think that's a bad idea.. it also makes TV even worse at predicting match outcomes (which, in turn, makes TVPlus rating worse at predicting outcome).

During pre-match, each coach, starting with the team with the higher TV, selects any amount of their treasury to add to their inducement pool in minimum increments of 10k gold.

Then each coach is given an inducement pool that is the sum of the amount of TV the other guy is above their team (or 0 if its below it) and the amount of treasury each side put in. Unlike petty cash the underdog putting in treasury doesn't count against their TV difference pool, it just adds to it AND gives the overdog some inducement gold.

Example:

Team A is 1100 TV, and Team B is 1250 TV.

Team A normally gets 150k of inducements due to the TV difference. The game starts and Team B chooses how much treasury to add to the game. They decide to add 50k. Now Team B has an inducement pool of 50k and Team A has a pool of 200k.

Team A then gets to pick how much treasury to add. They decide to add 100k. Now Team A has an inducement pool of 300k, and Team B has an inducement pool of 150k.

Then they pick their inducements using those pools....

Additionally we add in a new inducement that we'll arbitrarily call "greased palms":

(0-5) 10,000 gold - Greased Palms - Increases the minimum post-match winnings roll by 1.

What that does is give you an inducement you can buy even if you have less than 50k in your inducement pool.. and it is an inducement that increases the minimum, but not the maximum, gold you will earn for this match. When there's long-term attrition it helps teams refill their treasury by making sure they maximize their winnings.

That's a system that is simple, intuitive, and fair.