Interaction between Jump up vs Foul Appearance seems off

[Good Thyme]

I've recently been running a Norse team this season and, when playing against Nurgle, have found an odd interaction between two skills: Jump up and Foul Appearance. Lets first look at how the skills are described.

Jump Up: (Composes of two parts) 1- The player stands up for free without paying the three square movement penalty. 2- The player may declare a block action while prone which requires an agility roll with +2 modifier to see if he can complete the action.

Foul Appearance: Any opposing player that wants to block him (or use special attacks that take the place of a block) must first roll a d6 needing a 2+. If he rolls a 1, he is too revolted and the block is wasted. This results in no turnover.

Now, you have a prone beserker next to the enemy nurgle warrior. You activate jump up block as described in part 2 of the skills description. What should happen?

Looking at the rhetoric we see that when the player declares the block action, they must make an agility check to see IF THEY CAN COMPLETE THE ACTION- in this case a block. The foul appearance indicates that when the player wants to block them, the player must roll a 2+ to succeed in its action. In order for the player to want to block them, they must first pass their agility test. It's only AFTER they pass this agility test that they would then be able to block not before. Foul appearance suggests that it also works on 'special skills that take the place of a block'. These skills would be things like hidden weapons in which the player uses the skills directly upon the opposing player. Jump up would not appear to fall under this category simply because it is a self-imposed check that proceeds the actual action of blocking.

With that said, currently the interaction has the jump up player suffer the foul appearance check FIRST- the jump up player is then left prone, ending their action. They never could have activated a block action from the ground so how could it be that foul appearance activates? My only guess is that it is lumped into the 'special block skills' category. If this is the case, surely the description wouldn't say 'to see IF HE CAN COMPLETE THE ACTION', but perhaps something that suggests the block is happening during the test of agility.

What do you guys think?

[avaririot]

Interesting. I believe what might be happeneing is that Foul Appearance prevented the block from happeneing, and without being able to execute the block, the charactr stays prone. It's not an incorrect interpretation of the rule, but I would tend to agree with you, the Jump Up Player should be stood up in that case for passing the AG. What should happen is the Jump Up Player stands up but can't do anything else that turn for failing the FA.

[Arlen Tektolnes]

I'm half asleep right now so may e missing your point, but wouldn't the result be the same regardless of the order? Both rolls require a 2+. If you roll JU first and get a 1 you stay on the ground. If you roll FA first and get a 1 you stay on the ground.

[Dode]

I think he should stand up.

These are the skill descriptions:

Foul Appearance (Mutation)
The player’s appearance is so horrible that any opposing player that
wants to block the player (or use a special attack that takes the place of
a block) must first roll a D6 and score 2 or more. If the opposing player
rolls a 1 he is too revolted to make the block and it is wasted (though the
opposing team does not suffer a turnover).

Jump Up (Agility)
A player with this skill is able to quickly get back into the game. If the
player declares any Action other than a Block Action he may stand up for
free without paying the three squares of movement. The player may also
declare a Block Action while Prone which requires an Agility roll with a +2
modifier to see if he can complete the Action. A successful roll means
the player can stand up for free and block an adjacent opponent. A failed
roll means the Block Action is wasted and the player may not stand up.

I think the key to this is the difference between a Block Action and a block. One is the Action the players is taking, the other is the act of rolling the block dice.

This is how I think it should work:
Jump Up player declares Block Action. The first thing that should happen is he makes a 2+ roll to see if he can "stand up for free and block an adjacent opponent". Note that he has not yet declared who his target is but can stand up. So he picks the target for the block and the target has FA. The FA roll is failed and the block (not the Block Action) cannot be made.

So yeah, I think this is a bug.

[Good Thyme]

Originally posted by Arlen Tektolnes:

I'm half asleep right now so may e missing your point, but wouldn't the result be the same regardless of the order? Both rolls require a 2+. If you roll JU first and get a 1 you stay on the ground. If you roll FA first and get a 1 you stay on the ground.

While in your example the result is the same, the difference lies in the occurances in which you would pass the first check.

Example 1 (the current Cyanide coding)- player activates jump up; foul appearance procs. Player makes the 2+ and passes the foul appearance FIRST then proceeds to do the jump up check. They roll a 1 on the second check and remain prone.

Example 2 (the interpretation of Dode and I)- player activates jump up. Player makes the agility roll to see 'if the block action can be complete' and stands up to initate the block. Foul appearance then procs which is failed with a 1 leaving the player standing but without blocking.

In example 1 with a beserker you would have to pass BOTH 1/6 checks in order to get your player standing and would ALWAYS result in a block. In example 2 your player would only need to pass the first 1/6 check in order to stand and the second check would be for the block itself.

[The Knight of Faerie]

My reading of it is as follows:

1. Coach A declares they are throwing a block with the prone player that has Jump Up
2. Coach B notes that the target of the block has Foul Appearance and informs Coach A
3. Coach A makes the FA check, and rolls a 1.
4. Since the Jump Up player has already declared a block, which they can no longer make, their action is finished before they can stand up.

The conflict seems to be the order of when they stand up. If they're standing up as part of the block, which is how I read Jump Up, then the aborted block attempt means they can't stand up. The important part is that with Jump UP you can either stand for free while taking a non-block action, OR attempt a block action and risk not standing up at all. It's only after you know the block is going to happen that the player stands up in this case.

Basically, it's a question of if you roll Foul Appearance before or after Jump Up. I've also seen prone players fail a FA roll when attempting to blitz, and remain prone. So FA appears to be the first thing checked when you declare a block.

[DarthPhysicist]

Does jump up have a menu action if you click the player first?

[The Knight of Faerie]

Don't think so. It activates automatically. Just moving the player lets them move their full movement, but they can't throw a block. It's only when you declare a block with them that the AG check is needed to stand up. I assume that includes if you declare a blitz with them.

Then again, I'm pretty sure declaring a blitz against something with foul appearance but flubbing the FA check means the blitzing player doesn't move at all. After all, a blitz is declared before you start moving the player.

[Good Thyme]

Originally posted by The Knight of Faerie:

The conflict seems to be the order of when they stand up. If they're standing up as part of the block, which is how I read Jump Up, then the aborted block attempt means they can't stand up. The important part is that with Jump UP you can either stand for free while taking a non-block action, OR attempt a block action and risk not standing up at all. It's only after you know the block is going to happen that the player stands up in this case.

Jump Up: (Composes of two parts) 1- The player stands up for free without paying the three square movement penalty. 2- The player may declare a block action while prone which requires an agility roll with +2 modifier to see if he can complete the action.

How you describe the interaction does not align with the description of the skill. The JUMP UP needs to succeed BEFORE the player can complete a block action. Foul appearance does not proc until the player is being blocked.

Originally posted by The Knight of Faerie:

Then again, I'm pretty sure declaring a blitz against something with foul appearance but flubbing the FA check means the blitzing player doesn't move at all. After all, a blitz is declared before you start moving the player.

But the player still stands up BEFORE being stuck by the foul appearance check. Much in the same way as jump up, the player must first pass their initial test of agility (this case standing) before they can block.

[Dode]

Originally posted by The Knight of Faerie:

If they're standing up as part of the block, which is how I read Jump Up, then the aborted block attempt means they can't stand up.

They're standing up as part of a Block Action, which is not the same thing as a block. You can carry out a Block Action and have the block prevented (or indeed decline to block as part of it).

[licker34]

Foul Appearance (Mutation)
The player’s appearance is so horrible that any opposing player that
wants to block the player (or use a special attack that takes the place of
a block) must first roll a D6 and score 2 or more. If the opposing player
rolls a 1 he is too revolted to make the block and it is wasted (though the
opposing team does not suffer a turnover).

Depends on how you interpret the bolded part I assume.

[DarthPhysicist]

Originally posted by licker34:

Foul Appearance (Mutation)
The player’s appearance is so horrible that any opposing player that
wants to block the player (or use a special attack that takes the place of
a block) must first roll a D6 and score 2 or more. If the opposing player
rolls a 1 he is too revolted to make the block and it is wasted (though the
opposing team does not suffer a turnover).

Depends on how you interpret the bolded part I assume.

That would certainly apply to stab, but I tend to agree that the block action is everything including the block and Foul Appearance states that it applies to the "block". So while the block could be wasted, you should get the rest of the block action. Certainly if you blitz you run up and fail the block but still move because it is part of the whole Blitz Action. You don't just stay in your original square because you can't perform the block.

[The Knight of Faerie]

Originally posted by nStigation:

Originally posted by The Knight of Faerie:

The conflict seems to be the order of when they stand up. If they're standing up as part of the block, which is how I read Jump Up, then the aborted block attempt means they can't stand up. The important part is that with Jump UP you can either stand for free while taking a non-block action, OR attempt a block action and risk not standing up at all. It's only after you know the block is going to happen that the player stands up in this case.

Jump Up: (Composes of two parts) 1- The player stands up for free without paying the three square movement penalty. 2- The player may declare a block action while prone which requires an agility roll with +2 modifier to see if he can complete the action.

How you describe the interaction does not align with the description of the skill. The JUMP UP needs to succeed BEFORE the player can complete a block action. Foul appearance does not proc until the player is being blocked.

Originally posted by The Knight of Faerie:

Then again, I'm pretty sure declaring a blitz against something with foul appearance but flubbing the FA check means the blitzing player doesn't move at all. After all, a blitz is declared before you start moving the player.

But the player still stands up BEFORE being stuck by the foul appearance check. Much in the same way as jump up, the player must first pass their initial test of agility (this case standing) before they can block.

This is where I think you are making a mistake. It doesn't have two parts, it has two different ways can activate. The first is you declare a non-block action. This could be a breakaway, or just moving to a different position. If you do this, Jump Up lets you stand up the player at 0 MA cost.

Or

You declare a block action, be it blitz or normal block. If you do this you make an AG check with a +2 modifier. If you sucseed the AG check, you may stand up your player at 0 MA cost and throw the block. If you fail the AG check, you can't stand up the player at all. This is important to remember. It's not a check to see if you can throw the block, it's a check to see if you can stand up. and the trigger for the check is declaring a block action.

Then there's Foul Appearance.

Foul Appearance (Mutation)
The player’s appearance is so horrible that any opposing player that
wants to block the player (or use a special attack that takes the place of
a block) must first roll a D6 and score 2 or more. If the opposing player
rolls a 1 he is too revolted to make the block and it is wasted (though the
opposing team does not suffer a turnover).

The bold part I think is the most important part in this instance. You declared the player wants to throw a block. Now, you have to make a foul Appearance check. Fail, and you're not allowed to make the block attempt. Because you are no longer throwing the block, you can't make the AG check to stand up.. But since you already declared the intention to block the player can no use the "non-block action" option to stand up.

To clarify, you don't make the AG roll to try standing up until you're actually attempting the block. If you rolled a 1 on Foul Appearance, that player reconsidered even trying to block the target. Maybe they got sick to their stomach and are too busy vomiting to stand up. Doesn't matter why, only that they decided not to even try throwing the block.

It's just like how if you declare a blitz against something with Foul Appearance but rolled a 1, the player you declared a blitz with doesn't move. The movement was part of their block action. So without a block, they don't move.

You want really confusing... Consider the timing if a player has Jump Up and Really Stupid (or one of the other varients) and the block target has Foul Appearance. Do you roll for Really Stupid before, or after Foul Appearance?

In summery, the sequence of events is as follows:

1. Declare Block (thus negating ability to move unless it's a blitz)
2. Roll Foul Appearance to determine if you're allowed to throw the block
3. Roll Jump Up's AG check to determine if player can stand up (failure means wasted block attempt)
4. Roll Block

If you flub either step 2 or step 3, no blocking dice are rolled and that player ends their turn. Note that while failing a Foul Appearance check doesn't cause a turnover, I'm unsure if failing a Jump Up AG check causes a turnover.

[The Knight of Faerie]

Side note, as I read Jump Up, the AG check is PART of the block, not seperate from it.

[The Knight of Faerie]

Originally posted by Dode:

Originally posted by The Knight of Faerie:

If they're standing up as part of the block, which is how I read Jump Up, then the aborted block attempt means they can't stand up.

They're standing up as part of a Block Action, which is not the same thing as a block. You can carry out a Block Action and have the block prevented (or indeed decline to block as part of it).

Not according to Jump Up. If you're making the AG check, you have to throw the block should it work. The AG is part of the Block Action. And a block action is the act of throwing blocking dice to try knocking the other player down. If you're not making a block action, Jump Up requires no dice rolling to stand up. But in that case you can't throw blocking dice either on behalf of that player.

Think about it, why on earth would you call it a "blocking action" if the player isn't trying to hit the other team's player? The second you declare a block, you're anouncing your intention to throw the blocking dice. If you weren't planning throwing the blocking dice, guess what? You didn't declare a block. If something else prevents you from throwing the blocking dice, you still had that player attempt a block. Thus they can't do anything else for the turn.

[The Knight of Faerie]

Originally posted by DarthPhysicist:

Originally posted by licker34:

Depends on how you interpret the bolded part I assume.

That would certainly apply to stab, but I tend to agree that the block action is everything including the block and Foul Appearance states that it applies to the "block". So while the block could be wasted, you should get the rest of the block action. Certainly if you blitz you run up and fail the block but still move because it is part of the whole Blitz Action. You don't just stay in your original square because you can't perform the block.

In the video game, my experience is that Foul Appearance does prevent you from running up for the blitz. That's due to the way the system handles a blitz. You have to declare it before the figure has actually moved a single space. Thus FA can trigger and negate the action before they move. I tested this earlier via a local 2 player game between my nergle team and another team. Took a while for Foul Appearance to proc though.