When you use Apo?

[GFI_Joe]

So yesterday i had match vs Norse and at first turn he killed my BO with block and guard. I could use apo but was afraid to loose more developed players. In the end i got - AV on my blitzer with tackle and used apo. Now when i see the result I would better saved BO... So when do you use apo and what would you do in my situation - save BO and risk to loose (potentially) better players or skip?

[Kernest]

I play primarily squishy teams, Wood Elves for example, so the issue might be even bigger than what a high AV Orc team might have.

My rule is never on anything below a niggling injury or stat loss, though that's fairly common sense. Never use it on a line-elf, maybe not even on Throwers, so that leaves just Catchers, Wardancers and the Treeman, though that last one hasn't really been an issue.

Additionally, pray like hell and play like your life depended on it if you have to use it on a Wardancer or another key positional in the first half.

[GFI_Joe]

Yea I mean if one of your sufficiently developed catchers will die at first 2-3 turns, will you use your apo to save him? And risk your wardancer to be injured later in a game?

[Hairy Coo]

Apo is a trap. The only time it really works is on Badly Hurt. If you play to win, you should use it on badly hurt player, that is essential to win (i.e. your best killer on a bash team, or the only tackler against elves or ag5 leap stripper, etc). Hoarding apo to use it on a real injury might not pay off. Sometimes getting you bh player back would save lives (like you managing to score and reset the game or your killer getting their killers and so on). Nothing wrong of course to use it on a star positional that got realyl injured. Just almost never use it on linos.

[licker34]

Originally posted by Hairy Coo:

Apo is a trap. The only time it really works is on Badly Hurt. If you play to win, you should use it on badly hurt player, that is essential to win (i.e. your best killer on a bash team, or the only tackler against elves or ag5 leap stripper, etc). Hoarding apo to use it on a real injury might not pay off. Sometimes getting you bh player back would save lives (like you managing to score and reset the game or your killer getting their killers and so on). Nothing wrong of course to use it on a star positional that got realyl injured. Just almost never use it on linos.

Basically this.

A BoB really doesn't matter, sure it sucks to lose one that early in the game, but meh, that's blood bowl.

Apo use depends on your goal for the game. If you are playing to win, then you save it for a BH or KO in the first half usually (depends on your bench and your opponents attirtion to that point, as well as their ability to injure your players). If you get to the 2nd half and haven't used it, then you probably should use it on an early KO (if you need the numbers), or you have the luxury of sitting on it just in case you need to try to save a player, sometimes that's even a lineman with no skills! Depends on your team situation.

If you are playing for team development, and don't care so much about winning (this is more in leagues, but I suppose some people approach ladder like this) then yes, you save it for your first permanent injury/death to someone you care about. You let all BH and KOs go, since if they are off the pitch they are safe.

The problem people have is that they try to play both ways. Don't. Decide how you are treating your team before the match and stick to it. Again, the only exception is in the first case if you are lucky to not need it/use it in the first half, and are winning the game in the 2nd half to where losing players to BH/KO won't affect the outcome.

[Captain Super Credit]

If a Short term League:
Your best positionals (Wardancers, Werewolves, or players who have leveled nicely to complement your playstyle... and on players to try and win games)
Players that will give you the best chance to win that specific game.

In Longterm Endless leagues:
Usually just your best leveled players. (Wardancers are fine out of the box and will level quickly if replaced. Further they can become costly after 3 Skills so more skills to go around can be better.. I rarely consider using on a wardancer.. unless they have Juggernaught Stripball) So your star Linemen with Guard Leap (Example for elf teams) might be higher priority ( for cage breaking purposes.)
Basically.. on players that will have a hard time leveling up after replaced.

As for norse... they break easily... so Id probabaly go with werewolves unless somthing happened to another great player later in the match.

[GFI_Joe]

I play for Orcs and BO harder to level up than blitzers. But I am interested not only on who but WHEN... I mean Blood Bowl is game about risk management so how would you manage this risk: sacrifice a good player in the beginning of the game and save your apo for late game or use it to save him but risk other players? I am not talking about some usual lineman or unskilled player, but about valuable player (not star player or some "must save" piece).

Originally posted by licker34:

Originally posted by Hairy Coo:

Apo is a trap. The only time it really works is on Badly Hurt. If you play to win, you should use it on badly hurt player, that is essential to win (i.e. your best killer on a bash team, or the only tackler against elves or ag5 leap stripper, etc). Hoarding apo to use it on a real injury might not pay off. Sometimes getting you bh player back would save lives (like you managing to score and reset the game or your killer getting their killers and so on). Nothing wrong of course to use it on a star positional that got realyl injured. Just almost never use it on linos.

Basically this.

A BoB really doesn't matter, sure it sucks to lose one that early in the game, but meh, that's blood bowl.

Apo use depends on your goal for the game. If you are playing to win, then you save it for a BH or KO in the first half usually (depends on your bench and your opponents attirtion to that point, as well as their ability to injure your players). If you get to the 2nd half and haven't used it, then you probably should use it on an early KO (if you need the numbers), or you have the luxury of sitting on it just in case you need to try to save a player, sometimes that's even a lineman with no skills! Depends on your team situation.

If you are playing for team development, and don't care so much about winning (this is more in leagues, but I suppose some people approach ladder like this) then yes, you save it for your first permanent injury/death to someone you care about. You let all BH and KOs go, since if they are off the pitch they are safe.

The problem people have is that they try to play both ways. Don't. Decide how you are treating your team before the match and stick to it. Again, the only exception is in the first case if you are lucky to not need it/use it in the first half, and are winning the game in the 2nd half to where losing players to BH/KO won't affect the outcome.

Thanks, that's a good explanation.

[Kayeka]

If you go in thinking you should be hoarding your apo for that one player-breaking injury, then you'll usually end your matches not using it at all, and losing matches you could've won. Numbers on the field matter, and an early injury or KO can snowball into getting pitch-cleared if you can't avoid getting bogged down in a blocking war. Hoarding an apo may theorethically save one player, but if you're opponent gained a dominant position by wait of numbers through regular Badly Hurt or KOs you're likely to suffer more anyway.

You still shouldn't use it on rookie linemen, Black Orcs, and other varieties of LoS fodder. For everyone else you should ask "exactly how screwed am I without this one player?", and if the answer is anywhere above "somewhat screwed", you apo that.

[GFI_Joe]

Hmm ok i think i got the idia. Btw most of the time after you use apo the injured player will go to the bench till the end of the drive. So that means you won't get him back immediately and basically will play with same - 1 player.

[Hairy Coo]

Originally posted by Incognito:

Hmm ok i think i got the idia. Btw most of the time after you use apo the injured player will go to the bench till the end of the drive. So that means you won't get him back immediately and basically will play with same - 1 player.

This is why you apo BH in half 1 and KO on that important player in h2

[licker34]

Originally posted by Hairy Coo:

Originally posted by Incognito:

Hmm ok i think i got the idia. Btw most of the time after you use apo the injured player will go to the bench till the end of the drive. So that means you won't get him back immediately and basically will play with same - 1 player.

This is why you apo BH in half 1 and KO on that important player in h2

Yeah, using apo on a BH in the 2nd half is usually not the right play. It might be still correct if you think you will get the ball back for another drive (or if you are on offense and are going to score quickly). Else you're probably better off using it on a KO to keep the player on the pitch.

There are also times when using the apo on a MNG is right, but that depends on what your next game is and how important that player is to the success of your team. I've had playoff runs where one of my important players got MNG (no injury) early in the game and I used it, because it was a double bonus for me if it kept him around for the 2nd half, and I knew my chances would be much worse in the next game (assuming I won) if I didn't have that player.

If you're playing ladder then that concept is meaningless though.

[avaririot]

A lot of nuance to using the Apo correctly. Funny I am more likely to use the Apo to win (on a BH lineman in 1st half) in a MM game than I am in a league game. So that's the first thing you have to identify, how bad do you want to win?



Second is calculated risk. You are more liekly to try to protect the long term health of your team and save the Apo in a game where you know you are going to take a lot of damage.



Third is game situation. Using the apo on a KO can win the game for you, sometimes just by occupying the square.



It's a lot to juggle, but at the end of the day, if you are finishing too many games with the Apo in your pocket, you are probably doing it wrong.

[licker34]

Originally posted by avaririot:

A lot of nuance to using the Apo correctly. Funny I am more likely to use the Apo to win (on a BH lineman in 1st half) in a MM game than I am in a league game. So that's the first thing you have to identify, how bad do you want to win?

Actually this makes sense. The only point of ladder (to me) is to win, the health or state of the team is completely irrelevant since you can just play a zillion more matches and rebuild, or just dump it and play something else. Being overly attached to your pixels makes no sense, because you are always matched by TV, so you just lost 400k in players? Great, your next opponent will be (generally) 400k less too!

In league it's a different calculus. Depending on the standings, depending on your goal for that season... winning at all costs simply may not matter. Keeping your stars and legends around to terrorize the opposition might. You are also in a fixed schedule, so getting a massive TV trim hurts your ability to win much more than it does in ladder.

Originally posted by avaririot:

Second is calculated risk. You are more liekly to try to protect the long term health of your team and save the Apo in a game where you know you are going to take a lot of damage.

I love it when I'm the overdog and my opponent buys extra apos. It means they are not playing to win (usually) and I will utterly abuse them for their fear of losing a meaningless set of pixels.

I (almost) never buy extra apos. Other than in league matches, but as above, the calculus there may be different.

[avaririot]

Originally posted by licker34:

I love it when I'm the overdog and my opponent buys extra apos. It means they are not playing to win (usually) and I will utterly abuse them for their fear of losing a meaningless set of pixels.

I (almost) never buy extra apos. Other than in league matches, but as above, the calculus there may be different.

I like the extra Apo precisely because it lets me burn one early "to win" and then use the 2nd judiciously between winning and preserving. Up against a 2k bash team you do need 2 Apos to play to win.



It should be mentioned that Miss Next Game is almost always the worst way to use an Apo. League or MM, rookie or star player. Unless you are in the playoff semifinals don;t do it.

[Hairy Coo]

Originally posted by avaririot:

Originally posted by licker34:

I love it when I'm the overdog and my opponent buys extra apos. It means they are not playing to win (usually) and I will utterly abuse them for their fear of losing a meaningless set of pixels.

I (almost) never buy extra apos. Other than in league matches, but as above, the calculus there may be different.

I like the extra Apo precisely because it lets me burn one early "to win" and then use the 2nd judiciously between winning and preserving. Up against a 2k bash team you do need 2 Apos to play to win.

I'd generall agree to it when you are 400-500tv down. You already got a wizard, babes and a bribe and still have plenty of cash to burn and not so many options - star players usually cost more and if you might not need one already, extra rr is handy but not always so. This is where I'd consider extra apo.

[Kernest]

Originally posted by Hairy Coo:

Originally posted by avaririot:

I like the extra Apo precisely because it lets me burn one early "to win" and then use the 2nd judiciously between winning and preserving. Up against a 2k bash team you do need 2 Apos to play to win.

I'd generall agree to it when you are 400-500tv down. You already got a wizard, babes and a bribe and still have plenty of cash to burn and not so many options - star players usually cost more and if you might not need one already, extra rr is handy but not always so. This is where I'd consider extra apo.

I play Woodies almost exclusively right now, and the first thing I spend inducement money on is extra apos, babes after that. Because I don't need wizards, bribes or extra re-rolls to win, all I need is as many of my players on the field for as long as possible, and they do the rest.