Non-Able vs Earth Wolf Spirit

[Xengre]

I have seen Non-Able often regarded as the best spirit in the game, along with Wander Wright, when you see any discussions about the subject online.

Many suggest Non-Able is strictly the best and that anyone who doesn't think so is probably using it wrong.

Here are my thoughts after testing it.

Personally, I initially felt it to be quite strong (granted, only when fully upgraded otherwise it is actually extremely weak compared to others, even those that have no upgrades...). This is in part because of its passives and overall performance are so heavily dependent on its rank.

However, after testing it in detail I've found it to be overstated and underwhelming compared to what I'd regard as a far superior alternative, Earth Wolf. Non-Able's damage and effects change depending on when it is used in your combo, but it is pretty safe to say it is only realistically useful on the 4th combo just before the light attack finisher, and this is a problem. Why?

1. First, the prior combos cause it to simply do comparable dmg to simply extending the light attack chain, but at the cost of a spirit. Only practical for certain effect activation (like certain buffs) when activating a spirit, but the main 4-hit > Spirit combo will still be superior when you actually need this effect making even that situation a moot (at least majority time) point.

2. The 4th Hit > Spirit combo induces a notably greater stagger bonus and more damage, but more importantly the stagger effect. This coupled with a follow-up of resolute strike in the combo is why it is popular because the double stagger impact can be practical for controlling more powerful enemies (notably bosses that aren't immune to stagger). Further, you can use this spirit much more frequently than others due to the low Qi cost.

3. The problem with point #2 is that the overall damage output by having it available more frequently isn't what it appears to be. It is a trap. First, it negates final hit bonuses like the thunder proc on Kan-Jin Staff (and any others with similar effect I've yet to come across, and most likely disables Punishing Downpour's bonus as well but I'm not going to bother testing to 100% confirm as it is a pain to test them all). Further, the actual dmg output from the spirit takes away from basic light combo and potential heavy attack DPS potential because you're using it frequently. In contrast, Earth Wolf is a longer animation but overall shorter than the many casts of Non-Able, and the total damage output is much greater than that of Non-Able's multiple casts over the same period of Qi build-up, especially since Earth Wolf not only does not disable those light attack finisher bonuses unlike Non-Able but also build's up focus for more heavy attack use significantly faster due to Earth Wolf's kind of overpowered passive that easily trumps Non-Able's minor passive bonuses.

4. Another problem with #2 is actual crowd control of Non-Able is actually weaker when properly using both spirit's build potentials. How? First, Non-Able has a massive mana penalty (-100 Mana at max rank which is huge even at max possible mana in this game). This means less spell uses like Pluck of Many, or Immobilize/Decoy, etc. that could be used for very potent crowd control in hard fights and huge damage bonuses (not to mention the loss of Light Attack Finisher bonuses and heavily reduced Focus generation aka heavy attack usage of Non-Able). Plus, Earth Wolf can stagger a boss far longer (especially abusable in a corner) combined with Pluck of Man to produce some very devastating DPS increase and crowd control in combination with the two that Non-Able doesn't reliably achieve (esp on bosses that tend to knock clones away and Non-Able is far easier to interrupt, even before factoring using it multiple times... and interruption risks overall). Earth Wolf's increased focus generation also means way more overall staggering effects from resolute strike/Skyfall Strike/etc. effectively duplicating the core boon of Non-Able.


Ultimately, if going for Non-Able over Earth Wolf you

- honestly all but require max rank...

-don't get it until significantly into the game (where Earth Wolf is actually near the very start of the game and performs strong even at lower upgrades)...

- gain a mere 10 attack, 3% crit chance, 6% crit dmg at max rank (it is even weaker below that), but lose -100 mana (lose less at lower ranks, but always some), and get way less focus generation

- Get significantly less damage output and crowd control on bosses and comparable crowd control (but less damage) on normal mobs

Simply, this is not a good trade off. Earth Wolf is almost strictly far superior and it isn't close.

Now worth mention is Wandering Wright is up there (and there may be others I haven't tested as well) due to its massive burst damage and stagger on a single hit, especially running the fully upgraded Pilgrim set which is totally incompatible with the use of Non-Able anyways and Earth Wolf doesn't fully benefit from but can be more flexible on different types of bosses/mobs using (even with non-upgraded Pilgrim set, as you can adjust between using combos or charging sprinting heavies as needed making it an all-rounder, esp as Earth Wolf's focus passive can feed back into sprinting charged patterns instead of wasting it).

Just thought I'd share my observations about this considering it is such a popular spirit. I should note all my tests were done with a fully upgraded Non-Able, but Earth Wolf is actually 1 rank below max... and I don't have foundation attack damage / crit dmg perks yet (or any other similar bonuses) which result in Non-Able's passive having extreme diminishing returns unlike Earth Wolf's (tl;dr Non-Able gets much weaker as your build gets more perfect).

[ダミ]

Wandering Wight, he cares not who or what, he kowtows everything hard when upgraded to max. Granted you have to time the attack just right or you can miss. Another notable is the frog spirit but he requires some decent upgrades to unlock the element effects on his attacks.

[Xengre]

Yeah, the Frog Spirit I've heard is very powerful but RNG dependent on the element at its final upgrade. I don't have it yet to directly compare, myself. Another potential powerful spirit is the one that provides the +25% attack bonus, but imo it is way more restrictive due to range, cast time, and the fact it only gives pure damage making it mostly useful for properly thought out cheese approaches like Unveiling Strike nukes.

I wish Wandering Wright had more than +30 defense at max rank though. :( Still, for a proper build it can apparently hit 8k, and even 14k+ crit dmg.

[Candle Jack]

Wandering Wight is default, don't think I have found anything immune to the kowtow. But dude, pairing non-able's passive bonuses with spell-binder absolutely eats through just about everything. You lose any spirit activated stun lock but your DPS goes through the roof. Earth Wolf isn't even on my radar, the focus gain is minimal and only pays off with charged attacks which fail too often. Even the extra long reach level 4 charged attacks frequently miss if not used properly, and if hit at the wrong time you lose all charge entirely, it's too easy to get your focus ganked and completely negate the point of picking Earth Wolf. At least with non-able you're getting a constant buff on every hit.

Non-able reduces focus gain? This is news to me.*edit* Your phrasing confused me, I get what you mean now. Non-able vs. Earth Wolf is less focus gen.

[ダミ]

Something I'd like to try when I get both in this new playthough (started over the game completely after missing Erlang battle): the See No Evil mask and the Spell Binder skill. Easier perfect dodges and high DPS and I will try Non-Able's spirit as well.

[Xengre]

Originally posted by Candle Jack:

Wandering Wight is default, don't think I have found anything immune to the kowtow. But dude, pairing non-able's passive bonuses with spell-binder absolutely eats through just about everything. You lose any spirit activated stun lock but your DPS goes through the roof. Earth Wolf isn't even on my radar, the focus gain is minimal and only pays off with charged attacks which fail too often. Even the extra long reach level 4 charged attacks frequently miss if not used properly, and if hit at the wrong time you lose all charge entirely, it's too easy to get your focus ganked and completely negate the point of picking Earth Wolf. At least with non-able you're getting a constant buff on every hit.

Non-able reduces focus gain? This is news to me.*edit* Your phrasing confused me, I get what you mean now. Non-able vs. Earth Wolf is less focus gen.

Non-Able wont actually do more damage here, sadly, though I was along the same line of belief as you until I did detailed testing and looked into it with better analysis.

The issue is spellweaver isn't going to put it above other better options like Earth Wolf. Reason being that you can get over 100% crit chance in this game... (not that there is a reason, in fact heavy diminishing returns going above 70-80% even) and you can get over 200% crit dmg (where Non-able gives +6%...) and 300+ attack (Non-Able gives +10 attack). The overall percentage increase in DPS is actually really low even at the level 1 stats, but gets substantially worse as your build gets stronger. At 300 attack that +10 is only a 3% increase in attack... That 6% crit dmg on a 220% crit dmg build (becomes 226) is a grand 2.7% increase. Combined that is a 6% increase in damage in that example.

Even at the worst stats possible, level 1 50 attack and 130% crit dmg (we'll assume 100% crit chance in both situations for simplicity, especially since builds not using Non-Able can reach that high / close so it is an irrelevant stat point later on, we're comparing pure DPS potential and super low crit chance is basically invisible anyways as Non-Able only adds 3%)... vs using Non-Able 60 attack and 136% crit damage. Base build gets a 25% dmg increase, but this is almost all from the +10 attack... and because this is starting lv 1 stats + weapon... In short, this is the most extreme situation.

If we replace the prior test with the 70 attack Kan-Jin Staff grants / +10 from foundation tree (total 80 attack) and lets assume 154 crit dmg (due to foundation perk tree) which is what you would have when you first get Non-Able in chapter 3 (may be slightly dif attack with different staff, but should typically be similar and only get worse as stats go up)... You get left with a 9% dmg increase.

A 9% dmg increase by the time you first get the spirit down to an eventual 6% dmg increase (or less, the above aren't the max stats possible at all) for having Non-Able equipped isn't nothing but it isn't good, either.

When, overall, Earth Wolf does way more damage in a single cast, has way better stagger for Duplicate abuse (which often can be used once per fight anyways with how fast most fights go unless you run out the clock cheese staying away from boss until you get more clones...), better focus gain, and can use heavies (for see through/evasion/stagger potential) more frequently... that 6~9% becomes not enough.

This is before factoring that it does not include final attack bonuses (I just tested and confirmed it does not proc Punishing Downpour.
Example results of my test with Kang-Jin staff on a character with 70 Attack and 142% crit dmg (because my real build is only learning these perks now, I had to reset stats to get prior figures given above with the full upgrade... and only just decided later to test the final attack bonuses so I'm not going to redo it again with the full upgrades but it would only favor Earth Wolf as we pointed out prior with diminishing returns from percent increase difference). The below has no crits hit.
- Final attack with Earth Wolf did 208 (base) + 105 (lightning).
- Final attack with Non-Able did 237 (base), which is lower than Earth Wolf because it can't proc Punishing Downpour bonus in a Non-Able combo and it has zero lightning proc (as would any other finisher proc weapon bonus effect).

This results in Earth Wolf having a a massive 32% damage increase on that final hit. This is easily going to average out to favor/or equalize Earth Wolf against Non-Able over a full combo (as obviously Non-Able has very slight 6~9% gain on the other attacks from the light attack chain.

You might be wondering what the result would be if you simply don't use Non-Able in the combo chain at all and utilize its passive in the above example... 243 base dmg + 119 lightning. This results in it doing 15.6% more damage on the final attack... Plus about 6~9% more dmg over the course of the prior hits.

You mentioned that the focus gain on Earth Wolf is minimal, but I'm assuming you only tested it at rank 1? Even not fully upgraded it definitely isn't minimal by rank 5 of 6. It may not be obvious over 1-2 small hits but pull off a combo and such then you suddenly see it adds up a decent bonus (somewhere around 15-20%. However, less heavy attacks for see through and dmg (a Skyward can do 340 dmg in a single hit in that setup and massive stagger). Thus, the total performance if you don't summon the spirits is about equal, overall, with Non-Able's slight DPS increase and Earth Wolf's slight focus increase, but once you factor in summoning the spirit Earth Wolf's damage completely surpasses it (just a quick test with no crits and not counting precisely I can say it just did over 1k dmg in about 2s). Most importantly, having -100 mana is simply not worth it (unless spell weaver because you don't get mana then, at all).

Speaking of Spellweaver... Non-Able gets less attack from it than Earth Wolf because it converts mana over. This is 6 attack less, at all mana values (as long as both Non-Able and Spellweaver are max, cause ratio of mana to attack conversion). As pointed out comparing the crit chance bonus is pointless (Non-Able gives an extremely low 3% and you can eventually get high enough with any spirit it doesn't matter that Non-Able gives any at all). Non-Able still gets its 6% crit dmg boost but the gain is only 4% gain vs using Earth Wolf at these stats (so the 6% is misleading) and gets worse the higher crit dmg gets.

Essentially, the point is Non-Able's benefits are too small to actually add up to a real genuine meaningful gain, causing it to typically come out equal or worse. If we're factoring in Spirit Damage than Earth Wolf (and especially ones like Wandering Wright that can deal 14k dmg and such) completely displace Non-Able. Small gains stack up, but we don't have enough small gains. Our total gain from swapping to Non-Able is too small and the trade offs on Spirit damage output and the sheer loss of 100 mana are really very extreme, even before factoring in Earth Wolf or other passives (despite factoring in Non-Able's passive the entire time). One use is to use buffs that activate on spirit cast to keep them frequently active, but this is pointless against trash mobs while the overall dmg and lack of spell use will still lose hard against other spirits (and you can't even use this buff tactic with spellweaver at all).


Just a bunch of points and math. Too lazy to format and clean it up. Should be enough to draw some conclusions for most people. Personally, after looking into it and testing I don't believe Non-Able is among the best, or actually even good and regret wasting upgrade knots of void on it. That said, there could be builds/strategies I'm not aware of and haven't tested that could somehow make it much better (but this does seem unlikely at this point).

[Iso Koala]

Non-Able is game changer. Other are just special attacks you use 1 or 2 times during a boss fight, but Non-Able can be used all the time, making almost every combo have free extra heavy attacks and stun to the enemy. Some (not all by any means) can be even permanently stunlocked with him, comboing your attacks and using him to stun enemy, then smash the enemy and do heavy smash to stun again, then your Non-Able is ready to use again and you can win the boss without him never being able to stand up. And even when bosses arent that vulnerable, Non-Able is always a reliable way to make damage and get some refreshment to use heal. Also, with some equipment its unlimited stamina since you get stamina back after using him and you use him all the time.