Here's how to fix Wukongs combat

[Giganx]

Figured I'd do Game Science a favor and give them some pointers on how to design action combat,

First, cloud step should be how the normal dodge works. It comes out immediately and lets you follow up immediately; no animation lock. Remove the decoy and invisibility and just make that the dodge.

Second, counterflow and tactical retreat should cancel your attack animations and come out immediately. They're obviously supposed to be used dynamically while attacking, so the fact that you can't cancel into them is baffling.

Third, switching stances should cancel animations. This would allow players to stance dance to create unique combos that are actually practical even in hectic fights. For a supposed "action" game the ability to combo is non-existent.

From there you can remove crutches like immobilize and monkey gank squad and Wukong will be a pretty damn good action game.

[Zogtar]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Giganx:

Diposting pertama kali oleh leo_gear:

Well I view pointless restrictions as bad design too, but it doesn't seem like our perspective on "pointless" is the same. Are you saying the restrictions they have were accidental or not balanced around with other aspects of the game? I personally see cloud step dodging to be grossly overpowered as you could likely just spam dodge while throwing re-engages in between until the target is dead. It'd make a game you already view as not all that difficult into even less difficult.

In a vacuum, your ideas could be fun to play with but I don't think the game was designed to spam cloud step with abandon. Maybe as a NG+ stance or DLC or something.

Cloud step is just dodging without the pointlessly long animation. If you remove the decoy and invisibility it's not overpowered; it's just a less restrictive dodge that allows you to continue your aggression seamlessly.

If you're worried about the game being too easy I'm all for removing the 2 biggest crutches, which are immobilize and Monkey Squad.

Agree with you on pluck of many, but immobilize isn't a guaranteed thing. Some bosses just "naw, fam" it.

Thinking (so far) spellbinder and stacking crit/attack is more useful vs using any of the spells or abilities. Without the spirits/transformations/spells, it's just me using thrust stance, mashing light attack, pressing heavy to dodge/counter heavy. Very simple, very effective... just... kinda less fun.

[dustin1280]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Giganx:

You can't counterflow cancel any animations. You need to stop claiming you can based on a video that shows a player not cancelling any animations with counterflow.

As for the animations lengths, attacks 1 and 2 are still much longer animations than a lot of boss attacks. It prevents you from using counterflow reactively while attacking; and using it reactively is the entire point of making it a mid combo parry. Play a game that handles reactive parrying well, like Sekiro or Stellar Blade. Those are games that did mid combat reactive parrying correctly.

Wukong just takes things other games have already done well and does them wrong.

Ok, I reinstalled the game just to double check this.
You can counterflow after the first and second attack hit BEFORE they finish their recovery animation.
You cannot counter BEFORE attack 1 and attack 2 hits.

So I will take back my statement about being able to cancel at the same times as you can dodge cancel and apologize...

However I 100% standby the fact that as long as you plan around attack 3 of the combo, attack 1 and 2 will never stop you from countering in time as long as you have the focus. Attack 1 hits the enemy in about .25 of a second, attack 2 hits in about .5 of a second. So if the first or second attack won't hit before you hit, then you need to dodge instead...

This just further proves that button mashing will get you hit by the enemies and this game does everything it can to prevent button mashing.

Not once in my playthrough did combo 1 or 2 prevent me from counterflowing when I needed to.

[leo_gear]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Giganx:

Cloud step is just dodging without the pointlessly long animation. If you remove the decoy and invisibility it's not overpowered; it's just a less restrictive dodge that allows you to continue your aggression seamlessly.

If you're worried about the game being too easy I'm all for removing the 2 biggest crutches, which are immobilize and Monkey Squad.

Cloud step is the decoy, invisibility and unveiling strike. Unveiling strike acts as a re-engage because it has a gap closing mechanic in it too. And yes, I understand cloud step dodge would be less restrictive for combos. Do you understand that that makes it easier to dodge and re-engage?

As for the other abilities, I view those as other methods of shoring up a players' weaknesses. For players that are not as skillful with the current restrictive dodges, they can use that crutch until they learn the enemy better. On top of that, they are signature abilities of Sun Wukong. Removing them from the game just makes you a monkey with a stick...I can't agree with that lol.

[Giganx]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Zogtar:

Agree with you on pluck of many, but immobilize isn't a guaranteed thing. Some bosses just "naw, fam" it.

Thinking (so far) spellbinder and stacking crit/attack is more useful vs using any of the spells or abilities. Without the spirits/transformations/spells, it's just me using thrust stance, mashing light attack, pressing heavy to dodge/counter heavy. Very simple, very effective... just... kinda less fun.

I only used spellbinder once. I'm currently playing through NG+ but I'm using the crappy act 3 spear because I like the moveset. My damage is so low however I couldn't even beat the whiteclad nobles passive healing without spellbinder, lol.

Spellbinder is useful, but yea it's kind of boring.

[dustin1280]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Giganx:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Zogtar:

Agree with you on pluck of many, but immobilize isn't a guaranteed thing. Some bosses just "naw, fam" it.

Thinking (so far) spellbinder and stacking crit/attack is more useful vs using any of the spells or abilities. Without the spirits/transformations/spells, it's just me using thrust stance, mashing light attack, pressing heavy to dodge/counter heavy. Very simple, very effective... just... kinda less fun.

I only used spellbinder once. I'm currently playing through NG+ but I'm using the crappy act 3 spear because I like the moveset. My damage is so low however I couldn't even beat the whiteclad nobles passive healing without spellbinder, lol.

Spellbinder is useful, but yea it's kind of boring.

Why don't you have erlangs spear yet? It's as strong as end game alternatives and has the same moveset as act 3's spear...

[Giganx]

Diposting pertama kali oleh dustin1280:

Ok, I reinstalled the game just to double check this.
You can counterflow after the first and second attack hit BEFORE they finish their recovery animation.
You cannot counter BEFORE attack 1 and attack 2 hits.

So I will take back my statement about being able to cancel at the same times as you can dodge cancel and apologize...

However I 100% standby the fact that as long as you plan around attack 3 of the combo, attack 1 and 2 will never stop you from countering in time as long as you have the focus. Attack 1 hits the enemy in about .25 of a second, attack 2 hits in about .5 of a second. So if the first or second attack won't hit before you hit, then you need to dodge instead...

This just further proves that button mashing will get you hit by the enemies and this game does everything it can to prevent button mashing.

Not once in my playthrough did combo 1 or 2 prevent me from counterflowing when I needed to.

It's fine that you enjoy counterflow, but the fact that you're animation locked out of using it reactively absolutely defeats it's purpose. That doesn't mean it's completely unusable, but it's objectively bad design.

[Giganx]

Diposting pertama kali oleh dustin1280:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Giganx:

I only used spellbinder once. I'm currently playing through NG+ but I'm using the crappy act 3 spear because I like the moveset. My damage is so low however I couldn't even beat the whiteclad nobles passive healing without spellbinder, lol.

Spellbinder is useful, but yea it's kind of boring.

Why don't you have erlangs spear yet? It's as strong as end game alternatives and has the same moveset as act 3's spear...

Yea, I did my first playthrough blind and didn't get the secret ending. I'm on chapter 5 of NG+ and have been doing all the secret bosses, though, so I'm looking forward to having a better spear. Doing NG+ with the crappy spear has been interesting.

[dustin1280]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Giganx:

Diposting pertama kali oleh dustin1280:

Ok, I reinstalled the game just to double check this.
You can counterflow after the first and second attack hit BEFORE they finish their recovery animation.
You cannot counter BEFORE attack 1 and attack 2 hits.

So I will take back my statement about being able to cancel at the same times as you can dodge cancel and apologize...

However I 100% standby the fact that as long as you plan around attack 3 of the combo, attack 1 and 2 will never stop you from countering in time as long as you have the focus. Attack 1 hits the enemy in about .25 of a second, attack 2 hits in about .5 of a second. So if the first or second attack won't hit before you hit, then you need to dodge instead...

This just further proves that button mashing will get you hit by the enemies and this game does everything it can to prevent button mashing.

Not once in my playthrough did combo 1 or 2 prevent me from counterflowing when I needed to.

It's fine that you enjoy counterflow, but the fact that you're animation locked out of using it reactively absolutely defeats it's purpose. That doesn't mean it's completely unusable, but it's objectively bad design.

No it's not, it's built around the system this game has which is 100% to stop button mashing...

It's subjectively bad design to YOU.

The core of this game is it is built around timing and to stop button mashing. Every single mechanic when it comes to weapon combos is built around this...

That is NOT objectively bad design, it is different design that you do not like.

[dustin1280]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Giganx:

Diposting pertama kali oleh dustin1280:

Why don't you have erlangs spear yet? It's as strong as end game alternatives and has the same moveset as act 3's spear...

Yea, I did my first playthrough blind and didn't get the secret ending. I'm on chapter 5 of NG+ and have been doing all the secret bosses, though, so I'm looking forward to having a better spear. Doing NG+ with the crappy spear has been interesting.

Oof... That would be awful.... everything effectively has 200% more HP then it should with that spear, xD

It would be especially painful on the few bosses that the spear hitboxes don't work well on to begin with.

Props for stubbornly sticking with that weapon through NG+ when it is completely outclassed by nearly every other weapon...

[Giganx]

Diposting pertama kali oleh dustin1280:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Giganx:

Yea, I did my first playthrough blind and didn't get the secret ending. I'm on chapter 5 of NG+ and have been doing all the secret bosses, though, so I'm looking forward to having a better spear. Doing NG+ with the crappy spear has been interesting.

Oof... That would be awful.... everything effectively has 200% more HP then it should with that spear, xD

It would be especially painful on the few bosses that the spear hitboxes don't work well on to begin with.

Yea, below is me fighting the chapter 3 boss in NG+ with the crap spear, if you want to see just how bad the damage is. ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko1j_Dz8r8M&t=203s

I just finished duskveil yesterday with it. Fight took like 15 minutes.

[dustin1280]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Giganx:

Diposting pertama kali oleh dustin1280:

Oof... That would be awful.... everything effectively has 200% more HP then it should with that spear, xD

It would be especially painful on the few bosses that the spear hitboxes don't work well on to begin with.

Yea, below is me fighting the chapter 3 boss in NG+ with the crap spear, if you want to see just how bad the damage is. ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko1j_Dz8r8M&t=203s

I just finished duskveil yesterday with it. Fight took like 15 minutes.

Challenge run I guess?
I don't have the patience to do what you are doing in that battle... I would immediately say to myself "screw this" and equip a better weapon.

[Giganx]

Yea I've done challenge runs in harder games, so this wasn't really overwhelming or anything. And while the damage is worse, you do have better healing and durability in NG+, so in a way it evens out.

[dustin1280]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Giganx:

Yea I've done challenge runs in harder games, so this wasn't really overwhelming or anything. And while the damage is worse, you do have better healing and durability in NG+, so in a way it evens out.

Well I give you props to your patience, despite my disagreements with you in this topic regarding what is an isn't objective.

[zeta]

copied from another thread. There is nothing need to be "fixed"
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1ijn9eWE2k/?spm_id_from=333.788.recommend_more_video.1

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV18sWBeCES1/?spm_id_from=333.337.search-card.all.click&vd_source=9767cbcfb9b5d3f553556c6394a8638f

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1o7pweUEHq/

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV19vsueMEQH/?spm_id_from=333.999.0.0

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1GLHYetEq3/?spm_id_from=autoNext

[Giganx]

Diposting pertama kali oleh dustin1280:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Giganx:

Yea I've done challenge runs in harder games, so this wasn't really overwhelming or anything. And while the damage is worse, you do have better healing and durability in NG+, so in a way it evens out.

Well I give you props to your patience, despite my disagreements with you in this topic regarding what is an isn't objective.

Thanks. Agree or not talking about gameplay is more fun than the usual woke vs anti-woke steam crap. ;)