Here's how to fix Wukongs combat

[Giganx]

Figured I'd do Game Science a favor and give them some pointers on how to design action combat,

First, cloud step should be how the normal dodge works. It comes out immediately and lets you follow up immediately; no animation lock. Remove the decoy and invisibility and just make that the dodge.

Second, counterflow and tactical retreat should cancel your attack animations and come out immediately. They're obviously supposed to be used dynamically while attacking, so the fact that you can't cancel into them is baffling.

Third, switching stances should cancel animations. This would allow players to stance dance to create unique combos that are actually practical even in hectic fights. For a supposed "action" game the ability to combo is non-existent.

From there you can remove crutches like immobilize and monkey gank squad and Wukong will be a pretty damn good action game.

[redhongkong]

theres no such thing as input delay. its just ppl spam button like mmo/diablo game where they spam attack and drink potion 247
this is more like a music game, u hit the drumbeats

[Giganx]

Publicado originalmente por dustin1280:

Publicado originalmente por Giganx:

If that was the case they wouldn't be designed to require you to be mid combo to use them. Rock Solid is a TIMED parry. Counterflow is a "react to what the boss is doing WHILE you're attacking" parry. The fact that it doesn't animation cancel is 100% just bad design that misses the point of the ability.

And the game definitely loses inputs, and it's because there's animation lock and no queue. It doesn't make the game unplayable but it's still factually bad design.

The only part of the light combo that you cannot counterflow from is the 3rd part, the flurry.
So you have to plan around NOT being in a flurry to counterflow. Every other part of the light combo will let you easily go into counterflow with basically no delay.

You have to wait through the animation on every part of the light combo to counterflow. The first attack the animation isn't very long so you can counterflow off it and it'll usually work. If you're at the second or third attack in your combo when the boss decides to attack you then you just can't time a counterflow. It just makes the ability unreliable for no reason. It's factually bad design.

[dustin1280]

Publicado originalmente por redhongkong:

theres no such thing as input delay. its just ppl spam button like mmo/diablo game where they spam attack and drink potion 247
this is more like a music game, u hit the drumbeats

This is an incorrect statement...
Input delay is definitely a thing, but too many people conflate it with animation delay or recovery time when in fact input delay is something ENTIRELY different. But it absolutely IS a thing.

[dustin1280]

Publicado originalmente por Giganx:

Publicado originalmente por dustin1280:

The only part of the light combo that you cannot counterflow from is the 3rd part, the flurry.
So you have to plan around NOT being in a flurry to counterflow. Every other part of the light combo will let you easily go into counterflow with basically no delay.

You have to wait through the animation on every part of the light combo to counterflow. The first attack the animation isn't very long so you can counterflow off it and it'll usually work. If you're at the second or third attack in your combo when the boss decides to attack you then you just can't time a counterflow. It just makes the ability unreliable for no reason.

First part of the combo and second part of the combo have almost no delay, and are EASY to counterflow out of, in the video I posted this is CLEARLY represented...
Third part of the combo (flurry) is the part that is most difficult to counterflow out of and HAS to be planned around.
Fourth part of the combo generally staggers so it also is usually allows for an easy counterflow or other follow up.

Flurry is LITERALLY the only part of the combo that you won't be able to counterflow effectively from unless you plan around it.
The rest of the combo can be counter flowed reactively without issue.
Again this is CLEARLY represented in the video.

[Giganx]

Publicado originalmente por dustin1280:

Publicado originalmente por Giganx:

You have to wait through the animation on every part of the light combo to counterflow. The first attack the animation isn't very long so you can counterflow off it and it'll usually work. If you're at the second or third attack in your combo when the boss decides to attack you then you just can't time a counterflow. It just makes the ability unreliable for no reason.

First part of the combo and second part of the combo have almost no delay, and are EASY to counterflow out of, in the video I posted this is CLEARLY represented...
Third part of the combo (flurry) is the part that is most difficult to counterflow out of and HAS to be planned around.
Fourth part of the combo generally staggers so it also is usually allows for an easy counterflow or other follow up.

Flurry is LITERALLY the only part of the combo that you won't be able to counterflow effectively from.

The second part of the light combo is also a relatively long animation, so you can't time the counterflow. You can just do it and hope the bosses attack lines up with the end of your animation, but you can't actually time it.

Counterflow is supposed to be an active parry; meaning you can react to what the boss is doing while keeping up your aggression. The fact is that the animation lock means you can't react to what the boss is doing, you can only hope that the bosses animations line up with your animations; otherwise you literally can't counterflow.

[Zogtar]

Can we agree that input cancelling would be a nice feature added to the skill tree, maybe in the upcoming DLC expansion?

Maybe some free-flowing combos in a new stance?

[Phobos]

Publicado originalmente por Giganx:

Here's how to fix Wukongs combat

Enable skill and stop face-rolling buttons?

[dustin1280]

Publicado originalmente por Giganx:

Publicado originalmente por dustin1280:

First part of the combo and second part of the combo have almost no delay, and are EASY to counterflow out of, in the video I posted this is CLEARLY represented...
Third part of the combo (flurry) is the part that is most difficult to counterflow out of and HAS to be planned around.
Fourth part of the combo generally staggers so it also is usually allows for an easy counterflow or other follow up.

Flurry is LITERALLY the only part of the combo that you won't be able to counterflow effectively from.

The second part of the light combo is also a relatively long animation, so you can't time the counterflow. You can just do it and hope the bosses attack lines up with the end of your animation, but you can't actually time it.

Counterflow is supposed to be an active parry; meaning you can react to what the boss is doing while keeping up your aggression. The fact is that the animation lock means you can't react to what the boss is doing, you can only hope that the bosses animations line up with your animations; otherwise you literally can't counterflow.

The second part of the combo is actually the part that has the most generous animation canceling options, so you are wrong again...

Literally the ONLY part you have to plan around is trying to counter out of flurry and to a MUCH lesser extent the final attack of the light combo.

Combo 1 and 2 are easily able to be countered out of without issue...
Combo 4 generally staggers and if you get to that point you are usually going to be ok to counter or follow up.
Combo 3 is the ONLY one you need to actively plan around.

[leo_gear]

Publicado originalmente por Giganx:

Publicado originalmente por leo_gear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KW1hWJXIso

The fact that you can only sort of dodge cancel out of only the first light in your combo doesn't change much. Cloud step is still a much better way to actively string combos while also defending.

You can cancel out of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th light in the combo, just not the last.

[Giganx]

Publicado originalmente por dustin1280:

Publicado originalmente por Giganx:

The second part of the light combo is also a relatively long animation, so you can't time the counterflow. You can just do it and hope the bosses attack lines up with the end of your animation, but you can't actually time it.

Counterflow is supposed to be an active parry; meaning you can react to what the boss is doing while keeping up your aggression. The fact is that the animation lock means you can't react to what the boss is doing, you can only hope that the bosses animations line up with your animations; otherwise you literally can't counterflow.

The second part of the combo is actually the part that CAN be animation cancelled out of, so you are wrong again...

I'm pretty sure you can't counterflow cancel the second attack in the light combo, but I don't have the game open to try it.

Even if that were the case, you're still stuck in the other 80% of your light combo and thus can't use counterflow reactively while attacking. It's bad design.

[888]

333

[dustin1280]

Publicado originalmente por Giganx:

Publicado originalmente por dustin1280:

The second part of the combo is actually the part that CAN be animation cancelled out of, so you are wrong again...

I'm pretty sure you can't counterflow cancel the second attack in the light combo, but I don't have the game open to try it.

Even if that were the case, you're still stuck in the other 80% of your light combo and thus can't use counterflow reactively while attacking. It's bad design.

You have literally been proven wrong in BOTH videos that have been posted in this topic.

The Flurry is the ONLY thing you need to plan around, and that was intentional because this game is anti-button mashing.

Stop trying to claim things as facts that are blatantly untrue and PROVEN incorrect in this very topic.

[Giganx]

Publicado originalmente por leo_gear:

Publicado originalmente por Giganx:

The fact that you can only sort of dodge cancel out of only the first light in your combo doesn't change much. Cloud step is still a much better way to actively string combos while also defending.

You can cancel out of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th light in the combo, just not the last.

I am aware you can dodge cancel out of a decent amount of your light combo. The dodges themselves just have a long animation lock, which makes them bad for stringing combos. It's the main reason why cloud step is better.

[leo_gear]

Publicado originalmente por Giganx:

Publicado originalmente por leo_gear:

You can cancel out of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th light in the combo, just not the last.

I am aware you can dodge cancel out of a decent amount of your light combo. The dodges themselves just have a long animation lock, which makes them bad for stringing combos. It's the main reason why cloud step is better.

Yes, cloud step is a better option if and when it's available. But it's not always available...that's why it's so good. It's like saying pluck of many is better than light comboing...but it's not always available, nor should it.

[dustin1280]

Publicado originalmente por Zogtar:

Can we agree that input cancelling would be a nice feature added to the skill tree, maybe in the upcoming DLC expansion?

Maybe some free-flowing combos in a new stance?

I can agree, being able to freely cancel would allow for much more versatility in the combat system. However it would make this game closer to a DMC game and I don't think that is what the developers were aiming for...