Here's how to fix Wukongs combat

[Giganx]

Figured I'd do Game Science a favor and give them some pointers on how to design action combat,

First, cloud step should be how the normal dodge works. It comes out immediately and lets you follow up immediately; no animation lock. Remove the decoy and invisibility and just make that the dodge.

Second, counterflow and tactical retreat should cancel your attack animations and come out immediately. They're obviously supposed to be used dynamically while attacking, so the fact that you can't cancel into them is baffling.

Third, switching stances should cancel animations. This would allow players to stance dance to create unique combos that are actually practical even in hectic fights. For a supposed "action" game the ability to combo is non-existent.

From there you can remove crutches like immobilize and monkey gank squad and Wukong will be a pretty damn good action game.

[Giganx]

Originally posted by Wanderer:

Wow, ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, I haven't had to type this out in a while in non-souls game, but like.

GIT GUD. The games smooth as ♥♥♥♥.

I'm getting the impression most people here have never played a real action game. You people are really missing out if you think THIS games play is smooth as ♥♥♥♥.

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by Giganx:

Originally posted by Wanderer:

Wow, ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, I haven't had to type this out in a while in non-souls game, but like.

GIT GUD. The games smooth as ♥♥♥♥.

I'm getting the impression most people here have never played a real action game. You people are really missing out if you think THIS games play is smooth as ♥♥♥♥.

If you think this games clunky I think there's what's called "Copium" flowing through your veins. It doesn't *have* to be buttery smooth, but calling it clunky at all, play Monster Hunter or something. That's clunky. If you don't button mash, the combats actually smooth. You just need finger discipline like if you were playing a fighting game.

[dustin1280]

Originally posted by Giganx:

Originally posted by Wanderer:

Wow, ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, I haven't had to type this out in a while in non-souls game, but like.

GIT GUD. The games smooth as ♥♥♥♥.

I'm getting the impression most people here have never played a real action game. You people are really missing out if you think THIS games play is smooth as ♥♥♥♥.

This game objectively, has extremely smooth combat...

What it doesn't have is twitch based combat like DMC.

This game successfully requires you to plan each button press and account for animation delay and how you will respond to every enemy attack.

The more "button mashing" you do, the more likely you are to get animation locked and smacked for it.

Again I beat this game 100% with no button mashing whatsoever... You claim is just 100% wrong...

Now you are welcome to your opinion, and you clearly don't like that this game has no input delay and lots of animation locks...

That doesn't however make it "clunky" or "not-smooth" from an objective standpoint.

[Giganx]

Originally posted by dustin1280:

Originally posted by Giganx:

I'm getting the impression most people here have never played a real action game. You people are really missing out if you think THIS games play is smooth as ♥♥♥♥.

This game objectively, has extremely smooth combat...

What it doesn't have is twitch based combat like DMC.

This game successfully requires you to plan each button press and account for animation delay and how you will respond to every enemy attack.

The more "button mashing" you do, the more likely you are to get animation locked and smacked for it.


Again I beat this game 100% with no button mashing whatsoever...

I beat the game to. The definition of good action game combat isn't whether or not you can beat the game.

Souls games are slow and animation lock you constantly, so to compensate for that they include an input queue. Games like the most recent GoW are extremely fast paced and allow you to cancel into pretty much everything; from stances to active defense, resulting in crazy and amazing dynamic combos.

Wukong doesn't do either thing right.

[dustin1280]

Originally posted by Giganx:

Originally posted by dustin1280:

This game objectively, has extremely smooth combat...

What it doesn't have is twitch based combat like DMC.

This game successfully requires you to plan each button press and account for animation delay and how you will respond to every enemy attack.

The more "button mashing" you do, the more likely you are to get animation locked and smacked for it.


Again I beat this game 100% with no button mashing whatsoever...

I beat the game to. The definition of good action game combat isn't whether or not you can beat the game.

Souls games are slow and animation lock you constantly, so to compensate for that they include an input queue. Games like the most recent GoW are extremely fast paced and allow you to cancel into pretty much everything; from stances to active defense, resulting in crazy and amazing dynamic combos.

Wukong doesn't do either thing right.

It sure looks like you havent:
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198052384126/stats/2358720/achievements/

Also again this is your PERSONAL subjective opinion... You are welcome to it, but don't try to pass it off as fact, because that would be objectively wrong.

Just because you don't like the fact that you cannot button mash your way to victory (or you will get punished) does NOT make this game "not-smooth" or "clunky."

[Jester]

Originally posted by Giganx:

Originally posted by Wanderer:

Wow, ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, I haven't had to type this out in a while in non-souls game, but like.

GIT GUD. The games smooth as ♥♥♥♥.

I'm getting the impression most people here have never played a real action game. You people are really missing out if you think THIS games play is smooth as ♥♥♥♥.

I'm getting the impression here that none of you did your research before buying this game. It never advertised itself as a DMC game lmao.

[Giganx]

Originally posted by dustin1280:

Originally posted by Giganx:

I beat the game to. The definition of good action game combat isn't whether or not you can beat the game.

Souls games are slow and animation lock you constantly, so to compensate for that they include an input queue. Games like the most recent GoW are extremely fast paced and allow you to cancel into pretty much everything; from stances to active defense, resulting in crazy and amazing dynamic combos.

Wukong doesn't do either thing right.

It sure looks like you havent:
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198052384126/stats/2358720/achievements/

Also again this is your PERSONAL subjective opinion... You are welcome to it, but don't try to pass it off as fact, because that would be objectively wrong.

I play on PS5. I also bought the game on steam so I could play around with it on my laptop at work.

The things I'm saying are basically the mechanical fundamentals of making good action combat. Stellar Blade is an example of an action RPG from a newer studio that did most of this right. Koreans know how to do action combat.

[dustin1280]

Originally posted by Giganx:

Originally posted by dustin1280:

It sure looks like you havent:
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198052384126/stats/2358720/achievements/

Also again this is your PERSONAL subjective opinion... You are welcome to it, but don't try to pass it off as fact, because that would be objectively wrong.

I play on PS5. I also bought the game on steam so I could play around with it on my laptop at work.

The things I'm saying are basically the mechanical fundamentals of making good action combat. Stellar Blade is an example of an action RPG from a newer studio that did most of this right. Koreans know how to do action combat.

No, the things you are saying are one of the MANY ways to do good action combat...

This game has GREAT action combat, DMC has great action combat, Most soulslikes have great action combat...

Just because this game does it differently, does not make it objectively inferior... You simply don't like the way it does it, you subjectively believe it is "worse."

You are WELCOME to that opinion, but the things you are saying are NOT facts, do not try to pass them off as such.

[Zogtar]

Button mashing is how I play with the light attacks. Sometimes I'll add in the heavy attack to dodge/attack. I mash dodge while learning boss patterns to stay alive, as well.

I haven't been punished enough by the game yet aside from stubbornly fighting the wandering wight. For reference, I'm\still on ch 4. I've been running spell seal and thrust stance almost exclusively since ch 3..

Bad habits? Sure.

Maybe the true ending boss will make me learn attack patterns, but so far I'm playing like I play sekiro. Sloppily until I have to hone in.

(I'm more trying to add to the point that adding more combos like Devil May Cry or God of War could have gone a long way in snazzing the combat up.)

[Giganx]

Originally posted by dustin1280:

Originally posted by Giganx:

I play on PS5. I also bought the game on steam so I could play around with it on my laptop at work.

The things I'm saying are basically the mechanical fundamentals of making good action combat. Stellar Blade is an example of an action RPG from a newer studio that did most of this right. Koreans know how to do action combat.

No, the things you are saying are one of the MANY ways to do good action combat...

This game has GREAT action combat, DMC has good action combat, Most soulslikes have good action combat...

Just because this game does it differently, does not make it objectively inferior... You simply don't like the way it does it, you subjectively believe it is "worse."

You are WELCOME to that opinion, but the things you are saying are NOT facts, do not try to pass them off as such.

These aren't opinions, though; the things I'm saying are facts.

Animation locking you while not offering an input queue is bad design; it just results in the game losing inputs. Losing inputs is bad; it's the reason why much more seasoned developers include an input queue when there's a lot of animation lock. Not having the input queue isn't a "different" approach, it's a mistake.

It's also factually bad design to have a dynamic parry mechanic that doesn't animation cancel. It's also a fact that the lack of canceling removes ANY potential this game had to let you combo stances and attacks, which is a pointless restriction to place on gameplay. It makes this game less than the other games in it's genre.

[leo_gear]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KW1hWJXIso

[Giganx]

Originally posted by leo_gear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KW1hWJXIso

The fact that you can only sort of dodge cancel out of only the first light in your combo doesn't change much. Cloud step is still a much better way to actively string combos while also defending.

[dustin1280]

Originally posted by Giganx:

Originally posted by dustin1280:

No, the things you are saying are one of the MANY ways to do good action combat...

This game has GREAT action combat, DMC has good action combat, Most soulslikes have good action combat...

Just because this game does it differently, does not make it objectively inferior... You simply don't like the way it does it, you subjectively believe it is "worse."

You are WELCOME to that opinion, but the things you are saying are NOT facts, do not try to pass them off as such.

These aren't opinions, though; the things I'm saying are facts.

Animation locking you while not offering an input queue is bad design; it just results in the game losing inputs. Losing inputs is bad; it's the reason why much more seasoned developers include an input queue when there's a lot of animation lock. Not having the input queue isn't a "different" approach, it's a mistake.

It's also factually bad design to have a dynamic parry mechanic that doesn't animation cancel. It's also a fact that the lack of canceling removes ANY potential this game had to let you combo stances and attacks, which is pointless. It makes the game less than it's contemporaries.

The one thing I agree with you on is that since you cannot cancel out of anything, it gives you far less options to respond to a changing situation in combat...

I won't deny that, because this game doesn't let you cancel out of anything, your options are more limited then if it did.

However I absolutely do not agree that animation lock without input queue somehow equates to bad design.

This game plays incredibly smoothly and is not clunky at all...

The parry mechanic they have is meant to be TIMED and planned around how the boss is behaving, it's not meant to be an automatic success. This forces you to do more then button mash, and actually plan around your animation locks.

Finally, look at this video, and please explain to me how it is anything but clunky or not-smooth: Also note that he makes use of stance switching to optimally counter nearly every attack the boss makes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMZrLHef0Ic

The ONLY thing I will give you that is actually objective, is not having the ability to cancel at any time, reduces your combo potential.

The rest of your claims are PURELY subjective...

[Giganx]

Originally posted by dustin1280:

The parry mechanic they have is meant to be TIMED and planned around how the boss is behaving, it's not meant to be an automatic success. This forces you to do more then button mash, and actually plan around your animation locks.

If that was the case they wouldn't be designed to require you to be mid combo to use them. Rock Solid is a TIMED parry. Counterflow is a "react to what the boss is doing WHILE you're attacking" parry. The fact that it doesn't animation cancel is 100% just bad design that misses the point of the ability.

And the game definitely loses inputs, and it's because there's animation lock and no queue. It doesn't make the game unplayable but it's still factually bad design.

[dustin1280]

Originally posted by Giganx:

Originally posted by dustin1280:

The parry mechanic they have is meant to be TIMED and planned around how the boss is behaving, it's not meant to be an automatic success. This forces you to do more then button mash, and actually plan around your animation locks.

If that was the case they wouldn't be designed to require you to be mid combo to use them. Rock Solid is a TIMED parry. Counterflow is a "react to what the boss is doing WHILE you're attacking" parry. The fact that it doesn't animation cancel is 100% just bad design that misses the point of the ability.

And the game definitely loses inputs, and it's because there's animation lock and no queue. It doesn't make the game unplayable but it's still factually bad design.

The only part of the light combo that you cannot counterflow from (effectively) is the 3rd part, the flurry.
So you have to plan around NOT being in a flurry to counterflow efficiently. Every other part of the light combo will let you easily go into counterflow with basically no delay.

This is intentional and meant to make you plan around the long delay of the flurry attack. Let's also not forget that the final part of the light combo will stagger nearly every boss in the game (NEARLY) which you can then immediately counterflow from.

It does NOT equate to bad game design