I changed my mind on 5v5 and 6v6

[Mehno]

(Disclaimer: This Post is written with the intention of discussing changes of heart on this topic and why they came, not to just say "uh ow2 bad, and dead game")

Ok, I originally did a very in depth thread here yesterday about my view on this and how it changed but I cant find it anymore, dont know if I accidently not post it or if it was deleted but doesnt matter. I wanna talk about this and I just today found a video on this wich I find interessting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_0wcV_o0bY
(Mostly a ranting video but I find the clips from flats and the commentary on that mega interessting)

I was in no way, shape or form a 5v5 hater, I was even very open to it but that changed recently with seasson 10 and now 11. (Thats only the point were I realized it being a format issue though, I didnt have fun with it for a few seasons prior probably)
It started being less and less fun for me as a tank player,.So much so that I actually dont wanna play anymore for the first time since I started playing. (I only started right before Sigma came out in Ow1 and had a blast back then)

Anyway, how do you feel about this? Did your mind change as well? Or did your view on this stay the same? Im really curious if Im the only one who had a change of heart.

Edit: I found my original post, so if you are interessted in a more in depth look about my feelings on this, here it is: https://steamcommunity.com/app/2357570/discussions/0/4415298919336315737/

[Froog]

What I miss is the balance in the ow2 beta where tanks where had less hp, and almost felt like fat dps. And supports had to think about their positioning a lot more because dps where faster.

As a diamond bap/ana main at the time moving to 5v5 in the beta was a lot of fun because the game went from being mostly safe in the back line in ow1 to being forced to play in a more scrappy environment, where the safe parts of the map where constantly shifting by dps flanking and rotating.

[Froog]

Just saw this drop a few mins ago what do you think of it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGxC-j-vDbo

[Mehno]

Originally posted by Froog:

Just saw this drop a few mins ago what do you think of it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGxC-j-vDbo

I already clicked on it before but I stoped at 2:24 because I thought that there is no point in an arguement based on what Jeff Kaplan originally thought was good. I mean he is long gone.
I like Freedo but as of now, I just think hes wrong about the 5v5 issue.
I mean yeah, 5v5 could maybe work and bring fun but not with role lock and I just think we had a great game before. At this point the 5v5 format is the only reason for it being a "sequel" (Really dont wanna open that can of worms, as there is no point)

At the moment Im hoping a bit that the discussion with the dev team can come back about this. Even if the game doesnt change back to 6v6 it cant go on like this, I would say.

The video that gave me the light bulb was by the way this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozMEzSEqBiA

Anyway, I can totally understand you if you say you played alot of Ana and Bap at the time of the shift. It was cool having this faster game at that time as a support and dps. But for tanks in retrospective I think there was something off even back then and even if I had fun back then. I mean it was new and fresh after all.

[Mehno]

Originally posted by Froog:

What I miss is the balance in the ow2 beta where tanks where had less hp, and almost felt like fat dps.

Yeah, I dont like that sadly. I just have a problem with it because tanks being fat dps makes for less interessting and diverse gameplay loops and also it hinders the work on unique Hero design. Every tank would need to be adjusted and at the end of the day be more similar to all other tanks. I think we see this in Queen, Ram, new Orisa and Mauga, they also talked about this and called for tanks to be more like "big brawlers".
How would you make this work for dive or poke heros? Dva, Ball, Doom, Sigma would all be very hard to rework and loose their Identity in the process.
Then again, Im a tank player. I probably have a different view on this than most support and dps players.. at least I feel that way right now.

[Mehno]

Also just an interessting comment I liked under the Video I linked:

"Imagine if 5v5 was 2 tanks - 2 DPS - 1 support. If that was the case every fight would start with a support kill since everyone would hard focus it playing heros like Tracer and Genji to dive the backline no matter the situation which then immediately wins the fight for the team who gets the pick all the while the poor solo support getting hung out to dry gets blamed by the team for the loss for a "heal diff".

It would also mean half the support roster doesn't get played because they don't have a sustain or get out of jail ability which would be a throw.

How many people would enjoy playing support then? Thats the current tank life."

[Froog]

Originally posted by Mehno:

Originally posted by Froog:

Just saw this drop a few mins ago what do you think of it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGxC-j-vDbo

I already clicked on it before but I stoped at 2:24 because I thought that there is no point in an arguement based on what Jeff Kaplan originally thought was good. I mean he is long gone.
I like Freedo but as of now, I just think hes wrong about the 5v5 issue.
I mean yeah, 5v5 could maybe work and bring fun but not with role lock and I just think we had a great game before. At this point the 5v5 format is the only reason for it being a "sequel" (Really dont wanna open that can of worms, as there is no point)

At the moment Im hoping a bit that the discussion with the dev team can come back about this. Even if the game doesnt change back to 6v6 it cant go on like this, I would say.

The video that gave me the light bulb was by the way this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozMEzSEqBiA

Anyway, I can totally understand you if you say you played alot of Ana and Bap at the time of the shift. It was cool having this faster game at that time as a support and dps. But for tanks in retrospective I think there was something off even back then and even if I had fun back then. I mean it was new and fresh after all.

The point of the video is not to argue what Jeff Kaplan thought was good. It's just to show why he steered the team's design philosophy in the direction of one tank. He wights the pros and cons of each design decision.

It comes down to how much of a shooter do you want overwatch to be compared to a moba.

They still have a no role lock mode in comp and qp, i just assume that is what they might do with 6v6.

[JRS]

look I don't feel like typing a lot rn but solo tanking simply doesn't work..

look what they did last 2 years... transformed all tank in raid bosses to try to compensate and it's still unplayable, no one like playing solo tank, I guarantee duo tank can give OW 2 a second life

[[JRE] Joe Rogan]

The original mistake was role que but then it went to 5 v 5 lol, hard locking people into a role seemed dumb but if you NEED to do it you should've only made a dedicated tank and support hard lock and the rest should all be flex so people can have fun with team comps and play what they want more.

Overwatch also should never be an actually competitive game IMO. It was a mistake to try to make it into that and try to balance the game around GM play, if GOATs was the meta but people in Plat were having fun anyway they should've left it that way. Don't cater to the top 1% who cares about them, IDK if that's how it was honestly I barely remember but I dont remember hating playing OW in the GOATs meta, I think it was more Sigma and Orissa were overkitted and needed nerfs like Samito says a lot and Brig needed nerfs as well. But other than that the game was kinda fine.

The game in its state now I'm just bored with because it feels like it plays itself for you so I barely feel like I'm doing anything that matters anyway.

[Froog]

Originally posted by JRS:

look I don't feel like typing a lot rn but solo tanking simply doesn't work..

look what they did last 2 years... transformed all tank in raid bosses to try to compensate and it's still unplayable, no one like playing solo tank, I guarantee duo tank can give OW 2 a second life

no one wanted to play tank in 6v6 either we will just have longer que times as the game tries to find an extra tank player, if they put 6v6 they need to remove role que

[Mehno]

Originally posted by Froog:

Originally posted by JRS:

look I don't feel like typing a lot rn but solo tanking simply doesn't work..

look what they did last 2 years... transformed all tank in raid bosses to try to compensate and it's still unplayable, no one like playing solo tank, I guarantee duo tank can give OW 2 a second life

no one wanted to play tank in 6v6 either we will just have longer que times as the game tries to find an extra tank player, if they put 6v6 they need to remove role que

I honestly dont think so. Overwatch2 had even more players then Ow1 and the playerbase potential is also way bigger due to it being free to play. Also at the moment there are massive waves of people quiting this game or playing tank cause tank gameplay is actually so much worse then in any Ow1 Meta.

If you make tank enjoyable again with 6v6 and you make a public and honest rebranding and reform statement I think there will be alot of players coming back. Also you dont need to hard lock 2-2-2 again if you make sure to decrease support power levels. Goats after all was only a thing because of massive (Aoe-)healing powercreep. (And nerfing that is waaay easier than reworking all tanks into 5v5)
And even if there are arguements against this, we cannot stay as we are now anyway.
Tank players are rare and right now we loose even the tank players that endured the content drought in ow1, the hardcore tank enjoyers if you will.
I think if it truely stays like it is right now we will probably have as bad of queue times than in content drought ow1 in maybe 1 year

[Max]

6v6 is more fair for tan role but the issue no one want play tank and heal booting them, beside some heros like widdow will be ultra uselsss, lets not foeget evryone was want picking off-tank and not mian tank

now with 5v5 we dont have problem with long q role but tank is misrable to play, if you make them good then you incrouge "sawap to counter"

if you make tank weak then no one fgoing to play them



I think devs should rework tannk and make them has mobility with jq size.

[Froog]

Originally posted by Mehno:

Originally posted by Froog:

What I miss is the balance in the ow2 beta where tanks where had less hp, and almost felt like fat dps.

Yeah, I dont like that sadly. I just have a problem with it because tanks being fat dps makes for less interessting and diverse gameplay loops and also it hinders the work on unique Hero design. Every tank would need to be adjusted and at the end of the day be more similar to all other tanks. I think we see this in Queen, Ram, new Orisa and Mauga, they also talked about this and called for tanks to be more like "big brawlers".
How would you make this work for dive or poke heros? Dva, Ball, Doom, Sigma would all be very hard to rework and loose their Identity in the process.
Then again, Im a tank player. I probably have a different view on this than most support and dps players.. at least I feel that way right now.

I feel like the beta comps were mostly dive hybrids or brawl hybrids, except the long range maps were still always mostly poke sniper duels

i don't mean fat dps as in they are playing for kills, they are still playing like tanks with tank abilities but i mean their power level felt more like a dps, instead of all being buffed to frontline better

even in ow1 you could run a tank line with hardly any frontline pressure, but in ow2 casuals will complain if their diva can't frontline vs a brawl comp, so she gets buffed to have crazy sustain

i just perfer the more scrappy fights, where positioning is a lot more dynamic to the state of the fight rather than something where positioning is static because you more ridged roles and have safer positions to play

[Mehno]

Originally posted by Froog:

I feel like the beta comps were mostly dive hybrids or brawl hybrids, except the long range maps were still always mostly poke sniper duels

i don't mean fat dps as in they are playing for kills, they are still playing like tanks with tank abilities but i mean their power level felt more like a dps, instead of all being buffed to frontline better

even in ow1 you could run a tank line with hardly any frontline pressure, but in ow2 casuals will complain if their diva can't frontline vs a brawl comp, so she gets buffed to have crazy sustain

i just perfer the more scrappy fights, where positioning is a lot more dynamic to the state of the fight rather than something where positioning is static because you more ridged roles and have safer positions to play

Thats a good point honestly. I like it more if there is a possibility of scrappy fights as well. I generally like it if more then one way of playing is possible, as was the case in Ow1.
One thing though and I might be mistaken here but I remember a Ow2 launch (not the beta, I didnt pay that) were Tanks were either diving or brawling, wich is both pretty near being a fat dps in most cases. I remember that they actually played like that as well. The only exeptions being tanks like D.va and argueably Zarya (Zarya was only strong after buffs for season2) wich rely more on peeling for their team and I just find it sad that this isnt that viable anymore. It would be if tanks could peel for each other though.
The thought being: "More ways to play=better"

[Froog]

Originally posted by Mehno:

Originally posted by Froog:

I feel like the beta comps were mostly dive hybrids or brawl hybrids, except the long range maps were still always mostly poke sniper duels

i don't mean fat dps as in they are playing for kills, they are still playing like tanks with tank abilities but i mean their power level felt more like a dps, instead of all being buffed to frontline better

even in ow1 you could run a tank line with hardly any frontline pressure, but in ow2 casuals will complain if their diva can't frontline vs a brawl comp, so she gets buffed to have crazy sustain

i just perfer the more scrappy fights, where positioning is a lot more dynamic to the state of the fight rather than something where positioning is static because you more ridged roles and have safer positions to play

Thats a good point honestly. I like it more if there is a possibility of scrappy fights as well. I generally like it if more then one way of playing is possible, as was the case in Ow1.
One thing though and I might be mistaken here but I remember a Ow2 launch (not the beta, I didnt pay that) were Tanks were either diving or brawling, wich is both pretty near being a fat dps in most cases. I remember that they actually played like that as well. The only exeptions being tanks like D.va and argueably Zarya (Zarya was only strong after buffs for season2) wich rely more on peeling for their team and I just find it sad that this isnt that viable anymore. It would be if tanks could peel for each other though.
The thought being: "More ways to play=better"

Having a scrappy team comp was never really ideal play in ow1, you could 100% get away with it in ranked tho at least up to diamond/masters where i was at

it was only optimal at the pro level in some weird metas like when we had zarya + hog for a few weeks along with ashe+mercy just one shotting people,

Me and my friends used to call it the csgo meta because you had to play cover so hard, or you got hooked one shot, or 1 tapped to a damage boosted ash, i went to look for some recepts/gameplay i can't find much on it but i found this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aydzMRaCETE

What made it feel so scrappy to me was not having some kind of shield/bunker like you usually would in an ow1 poke comps, honestly in retrospect this gameplay looks a lot like a poke comp in ow2 especially at launch.

To me tanks aren't really poke heroes, even the ones like sigma that are considered to be poke heroes lack the range of poke dps, they can just enable poke comps better than the other dive/brawl tanks, in the ow2 beta i think poke was viable just maybe overshadowed because of the buff tracer/genji got from dps having increased movement speed.

Honestly tho, really thinking about I don't think the ow2 beta was very balanced it was just more fun for me for the style of gameplay that I prefer.