Lore question: origin of the Skaven

[Darcaem]

Is there an "oficial" anwser about the origin of the Skaven?

In the Skaven's codex from 6th and 7th edition, it tells the tale of "The Doom of Kavzar". But this tale, unless I misread something, doesn't really explain the origin of them.

In "The Loathsome Ratmen, and all their vile kin", supposedly written by Wilhelm Leiber, scholar and survivor of an Skaven attack, the author discusses three possible origins based on other supposed scholars' arguments:

1.- Wilfried Schtrutt argues tha the Skaven are originally rats "mutated by the hand of some malign and unknown power". And he wonders if "the Ruinous Powers may have played some part" in this mutation.

2.- Despite agreing with Schtrutt's theory, the Tilean classicist, Verdallo, believes that "all things in the universe" were created by the interaction of "vast and impersonal cosmic archetypes which exist outside Space and Time". So, "Dwarfs are created by the union of man and stone", "Elves by the union of man and plan", and so, Skaven are created by the union of rat and man. But the author, Wilhelm, quickly discarts this theory, as it does not fulfil any empirical analysis.

3.- In Johannes Krueger's "Bestiarium" it is argued that Skaven are man that where cursed by their actions. He tells an ancient Estalien legend where a group of shipwreck survivors turn into cannibalism, and so "the sea-God Manann transformed into rats". Kruegers believe that there is truth beneath the myth, and that there actually were some mariners that resorted to cannibalism and were cursed by Manann, in an island that he calls Rodentenland, to the east of the -at that time- newly discovered Lustria. But instead of "being changed into rats per se, the curse caused them to slowly degenerate into man-rat hybrids, and it was these hybrids who served as the progenitors of the modern Skaven race". Johannes even calls for an unnited expedition to find that island and exterminate the natives.
Wilhelm also refutes this theory, as "despite much exploration [...] no trace of such island has even been found". He concludes that "Rodentenland is as much a myth as tales of lost tribes of Hafling cannibals in the New World, or vast kingdoms ruled by Ogres east of the World's Edge Mountains".

Finally Wilhelm applies the "scholarly dictum of the Otkar's Razor" (oh, I did laugh when reading about the Warhammer version of Occam) and concludes that the first explanation must be true. According to him, Skaven are "ordinary rats transformed into horrors", but he "can only guess what ancient sorcery -or ancient hand- was responsible" of it. Nor can he "hazard a motive for perpetrating such a mostrous crime.

So, were the Chaos Gods responsible for the creation of the ratmen? Why? (besides, you know, chaos) And, who is the Horned Rat? Does it exist?

Perhaps all of this questions do have an official answer, I have not read the End of Times, and just a very tiny fragment of all the Warhammer's lore books.

PS: I'm asking this also in the TW: Warhammer's forum: http://steamcommunity.com/app/364360/discussions/0/152393186499330531/

[Unzerbrechlich]

引用自 Darcaem：

who is the Horned Rat? Does it exist?

Hey OP wanna know what happend the last time someone questioned the existance of The Great Grey One? The end of times happened with one single Edict:


"Thirteen times thirteen passes of the Chaos moon I will give you. Thirteen times thirteen moons I will wait. Go to your legions and your workshops! Bring me victory. Bring me dominance over this mortal realm! You must be as one, work as one, as single-minded as a swarm pouring from a cracked sewer-pipe all rats scurry-flood in same direction. Only then will you inherit the ruins of this world, only then will you rule. Thirteen times thirteen moons! Fail, and all will suffer the fate of the seer."
Edict of the Horned Rat

Spoilers

They won, and now the Great Horned Rat is a chaos god

[Superkraft1]

very interesting ,but this still dont explain the exact origin of the Skaven or the Horned Rat...

[Darcaem]

引用自 Unzerbrechlich：

Hey OP wanna know what happend the last time someone questioned the existance of The Great Grey One? The end of times happened with one single Edict:


"Thirteen times thirteen passes of the Chaos moon I will give you. Thirteen times thirteen moons I will wait. Go to your legions and your workshops! Bring me victory. Bring me dominance over this mortal realm! You must be as one, work as one, as single-minded as a swarm pouring from a cracked sewer-pipe all rats scurry-flood in same direction. Only then will you inherit the ruins of this world, only then will you rule. Thirteen times thirteen moons! Fail, and all will suffer the fate of the seer."
Edict of the Horned Rat

Spoilers

They won, and now the Great Horned Rat is a chaos god

You are right... All hail the Horned Rat!!

[General Plastro]

引用自 Darcaem：

引用自 Unzerbrechlich：

Hey OP wanna know what happend the last time someone questioned the existance of The Great Grey One? The end of times happened with one single Edict:


"Thirteen times thirteen passes of the Chaos moon I will give you. Thirteen times thirteen moons I will wait. Go to your legions and your workshops! Bring me victory. Bring me dominance over this mortal realm! You must be as one, work as one, as single-minded as a swarm pouring from a cracked sewer-pipe all rats scurry-flood in same direction. Only then will you inherit the ruins of this world, only then will you rule. Thirteen times thirteen moons! Fail, and all will suffer the fate of the seer."
Edict of the Horned Rat

Spoilers

They won, and now the Great Horned Rat is a chaos god

You are right... All hail the Horned Rat!!

Not really, the Horned One is dead, along with almost all the Skaven.

The Chaos Gods betrayed the skaven (as everyone could see it a mile away). Nurgle, Tzeench and Khorne are still kicking, Slaanesh is "kinda" dead in the Age of Sigmar timeline.

Heck, you guys know that Sigmar rescued Gorkamorka? The orks fought alongside the Empire for a while before literally finding it too boring to keep the alliance up.

The Skaven are dead, thats the only race i remember that got 100% ♥♥♥♥♥♥ by the End Times plot, even the Undead Vampires are still around (altho Vlad & his wife were finally killed off for good). Not sure about the Tomb Lords or the Dark Elves, i think they are *mostly* dead too.

All chaos factions (beastmen, chaos dwarfs, and the proper chaos tribes) got merged into one faction (Chaos).

Its really sad, since due to the Scavan's cowardlyness, the entire end of the world was allowed to happened, had they sided with the Human/Undead/Elves/Dwarves/Lizardmen (kind of) alliance, they might have beated the forces of chaos.

[WarbringerVI]

What's with people sticking "C" on every race that uses "K"? I really don't understand, please call them Skaven. :v

[Unzerbrechlich]

引用自 SuperKraft1：

very interesting ,but this still dont explain the exact origin of the Skaven or the Horned Rat...

We know the warp realm the Horned Rat lives is the place where the skaven souls go, so that must mean He has direct claim to their souls because they are His souls, He controls demon rats, He can empower the Seers, He blesses rats at birth...

So basically He created them, but what created The Great Hornet Rat? beats me, but I thinks is like Lizardmen, something on the warp side wanted some toys and created the demon rats which then created the mortal rats out of ambition just like the normal chaos created beastman.

引用自 General Plastro：

After the End Times the scaven are dead and exterminated for good (serves them right for being cowards and thinking the Chaos Gods would spare them). I guess the Horned one was indeed mortal or simply didint cared for its children (or didint existed at all, considering how the Scaven came up with their deity at all).

Dont expect GW to ever expand on them ever again, unless they go back to normal warhammer fantasy and not the Age of Sigmar shenanigans

The End of Times is literally How the Skaven won, I mean The Vampires and Lizardmen got robbed for that to happend but GW gonna GW.

And in the Age of Sigmar Skaven are the ones with the best ever after realm, infinite warpstone, tunnels so deep they break the barriers of reality and clans the size of billions. They ran at the final battle but hell if The Great Horned Rat didn't keep his promise.

The only thing thinks that will ever stop the skaven is how coward they are, and the lizarman this time maybe.

[General Plastro]

引用自 Unzerbrechlich：

引用自 General Plastro：

After the End Times the scaven are dead and exterminated for good (serves them right for being cowards and thinking the Chaos Gods would spare them). I guess the Horned one was indeed mortal or simply didint cared for its children (or didint existed at all, considering how the Scaven came up with their deity at all).

Dont expect GW to ever expand on them ever again, unless they go back to normal warhammer fantasy and not the Age of Sigmar shenanigans

The End of Times is literally How the Skaven won, I mean The Vampires and Lizardmen got robbed for that to happend but GW gonna GW.

And in the Age of Sigmar Skaven are the ones with the best ever after realm, infinite warpstone, tunnels so deep they break the barriers of reality and clans the size of billions. They ran at the final battle but hell if The Great Horned Rat didn't keep his promise.

The only thing thinks that will ever stop the skaven is how coward they are, and the lizarman this time maybe.

Pretty sure my Compedium here says otherwise, Skavenblight might have been a "promised land" for the ratmen, but it seems they got ♥♥♥♥♥♥ like everyone else. And the Horned One stopped communicating with the Skaven after the end times (granted, the other chaos gods did too). But considering how Achaon himself said the Skaven would be discarded after Chaos was done with them, i dont think the Horned One got a future ahead of him in whatever place the Chaos Gods end up in.

[Unzerbrechlich]

引用自 General Plastro：

i dont think the Horned One got a future ahead of him in whatever place the Chaos Gods end up in.

This right here, after what GW did whit the Dwarves, nothing is set in stone until the miniature range is updated, we could even have a new skaven origin that they are searching for the pieces of the Great Horned Rat and the beastmen aiding them

In the end we will never know the origin of the skaven beacuse the fantasy is dead and Age of Sigmar is really a sequel and reboot so any new info only applies to it.

[FlameWar]

引用自 General Plastro：

The Chaos Gods betrayed the skaven (as everyone could see it a mile away). Nurgle, Tzeench and Khorne are still kicking, Slaanesh is "kinda" dead in the Age of Sigmar timeline.

Actually AoS is officialy set in a corner of the W40K universe (at least that wa sthe public statement form GW at the beginning of it), so while one of the chaos goods or antoehr might not have direct interactiosn wit hthe planet, they are all happliy going along with their existences i nthe warp and the rest of the galaxy.

[General Plastro]

引用自 FlameWar：

引用自 General Plastro：

The Chaos Gods betrayed the skaven (as everyone could see it a mile away). Nurgle, Tzeench and Khorne are still kicking, Slaanesh is "kinda" dead in the Age of Sigmar timeline.

Actually AoS is officialy set in a corner of the W40K universe (at least that wa sthe public statement form GW at the beginning of it), so while one of the chaos goods or antoehr might not have direct interactiosn wit hthe planet, they are all happliy going along with their existences i nthe warp and the rest of the galaxy.

Yeah, the co-relation between the Lizardmen being the Old Ones is really cool :)

While GW have said that (and i find it really cool), there is still lots of links to tie (otherwise the Ratmen will survive as being one of W40k's Abhuman sub-races).

引用自 Unzerbrechlich：

引用自 General Plastro：

i dont think the Horned One got a future ahead of him in whatever place the Chaos Gods end up in.

This right here, after what GW did whit the Dwarves, nothing is set in stone until the miniature range is updated, we could even have a new skaven origin that they are searching for the pieces of the Great Horned Rat and the beastmen aiding them

In the end we will never know the origin of the skaven beacuse the fantasy is dead and Age of Sigmar is really a sequel and reboot so any new info only applies to it.

Indeed, by the end of the day, its all up to GW to screw or unscrew the universe we love so much.

But honestly, Age of Sigmar was terribly received, the future will tell if they will keep to it or it will become "GW's DnD 4th edition" and be quickly replaced by something else.