Weapon Discussion - Viktor Saltzpyre

[Gorwe]

I intend to create one of these / week, just to see what you, players think about weaponry and the balance thereof. I'll begin as I usually do, from the left and that means it's time for our Witch Hunter(I'll post my thoughts, feel free to post your own):

MELEE:

Rapier:

Right, let's begin with Rapier. I think that Rapier is as good as ever and that it doesn't really need any buffs or nerfs. Its speed is unsurpassed, damage is pathetic(unless headshot, doing which is VERY easy) and the push is weak. This weapon's meant to be played kinda like Elf's 1h Sword. Attack while dodging. I am not certain what's the point of the pistol though. I mean, it is nice yes, but it doesn't really do much, does it? Imo, the perfect traits are: ( Bloodlust + Perfect Balance + Endurance ) . You can always substitute Bloodlust for Regrowth(N). All of those play to the strenghts of Rapier perfectly. Imo, pushing with this one is a waste of time and Stamina-best avoid.
It pairs best with something that can deal with Roger and with Specials...Volley?

Falchion:

Ah, the newcomer. It is a very fun and effective weapon that is actually very well balanced. See, without headshots, the ArPen is limited to Power Attacks and that leaves you open. Overall, the damage without headshots is...lacking. Its biggest weakness is the fact it has only FOUR Stamina(2 shields). Pathetic. And it isn't really that good at dodge + strike as you might believe. But, if you can land headshots at the rate of 1 headshot / 3 normal attacks, you should be golden. I am not certain how many enemies it attacks-is it 2 or 3? Anyhow, a very fun and powerful weapon. Ideal traits: ( Bloodlust, Backstab, Perfect Balance ). All of those three play to the strenghts of a Falchion and PB helps you more than you'd think. Without it, you can parry 4 attacks and with it, 6. It is a world of difference. Funnily enough, it has Backstab and is hence very powerful against Roger. I STILL don't understand why Viktor received this weapon and not Markus...
The best pair is the Crossbow imo. Viktor doesn't have good AoE ranged options anyhow and this is the best he's got. Plus, it might remove those pesky specials.

Flamberge:

The weapon with nearly identical normal and power attacks. Unlike on Markus, where I don't really see the point of it, here it is perfectly justified. It's just...this is such a weirdly balanced weapon. Imo, the base damage of a normal attack should be raised from 4 to 5. Meaning, it'd kill Slaves(really, this is an AoE weapon that can't AoE...excuse me?) in 1 and Clans in 2 strikes(Cata). What with its glaring openings and overall bulky feel, I feel like this'd be justified. I don't know currently, I'm not fan of how it performs. The best traits: ( Bloodlust, Swift Slaying N, Perf.bal / Dev.Blow ). I mean, you could always substitute Bloodlust for Regrowth(N) and Swift Slaying(N) for Berserk, but I feel like the pair I wrote in the brackets is better. I'm not certain between PB and DB. PB would give you four shields and DB would increase your Push and Stagger strenghts. Either would work. Funnily enough, Regrowth(N) / Bloodlust + Dev.Blow would also work PERFECTLY with Endurance, it's just that you'd lose the dps.
The best pair is something that can quickly flatten Stormvermin and Specials(Roger is none of your concern). Either Repeater or Crossbow. I'm more of a fan of combining it with Repeater.

Templar Axe:

It used to be perfectly useless prior to 1,5. Now it's...beautiful. I just don't understand the power attack now. Yes, it is stronger, but do you really need those 2 or 3 extra damages(how about that very easy headshot)? In the long run, it also negatively influences your awesome single target dps. So, what's the point of it? Imo, it should get changed to something. It's biggest advantage over its main rival(Falchion) is that all the attacks have ArPen properties. It is also faster and comes packed with 3 shields. It is a very effective weapon now. Traits: ( Bloodlust / Berserk, Backstab, Perfect Balance ). Nothing new there. The obligatory backstab paired with the obligatory on kill trait(really, both are good) and the PB...produces a VERY powerful weapon. It's value is severely brought down by what I'm about to write though.
It pairs best with an AoE ranged weapon. Something like a Blunderbuss or something to that effect. Luckily, Viktor has exactly ZERO of such weaponry. This is a big problem. The best you can do is to take either Pistols with Rupture or a Crossbow.

RANGED:

Crossbow:

This weapon also got buffed in 1,5. It is now a combo of an anti special Ranged and line skillshot Ranged. Look, it hits up to FIVE rats and kills all of those. Which is kinda useless in most scenarios, but when it works...it works almost like a Blunderbuss. Honestly, you should only bring it out when there's a pressing need(a special, a Stormvermin, 5 Clans nicely lined), so the ammo is of no consequence(kinda like the Rifle). Its biggest drawback has got to be the Arrow Flight mechanics. And the reload speed. It is an effective Sidearm, I'll give you that. The traits: ( Master Crafted, Scavenger, X ). Honestly, I don't know what to put as a last trait. The MC is the only one really needed and Scavenger is a nice boon too. I wouldn't take on kill traits because you just won't be killing that much with this and on hit, forget those, the crossbow's killing most of stuff it shoots. Maybe HoD or Rupture?
It pairs best with melee weaponry capable of taking care of Horde / Ambush events. Namely, the Flamberge. And the Rapier to a lesser extent.

Repeater Pistol:

What an odd weapon. The primary attack is nigh useless when you don't drink the STR potion(and when you do, you delete the SV patrol), is not accurate enough, the headshot modifier isn't large enough, the scavenger doesn't really work etc etc. The charged attack is a point black shot that fires ALL of your remaining bullets in the current clip and is hence an ideal SV killer. I just don't know about this weapon, it is so awesome to use and when it works, it REALLY works(+has a hell of a fast reload speed), but...that damage man! It is overly reliant on STR potion gimmick imo. The traits: ( Extra Capacity, Ammo Holder, X ). EC and AH are nigh necessary. AH for ammo efficiency and EC for power attack efficiency. I can't say which one of those two is more mandatory. Honestly, both are. For the third trait, I'd just use either of these: Rupture(kinda useless) / Targeteer(preferably, it helps with the spread of your power attack, making you able to snipe Globes and what not) / HoD(depends on how it functions with the power attack).
It pairs best with anything that takes care of massed trash. Namely, Flamberge. And to a lesser extent, the Rapier.
Imo, what this weapon needs is a functioning headshot, perhaps even above 2,5x.

Pistols:

The main armament of many a WH. And rightfully so. With 1,5 the targeting has been tightened and hence it is much, much more satisfying to use. It is an all purpose ranged weapon with a LOT of ammo. You can't really go wrong with this one. Provided you can actually aim for a damn's worth. Both attack modes are also very useful. This'll stop Clanrats, Stormvermin, specials, even Rogers. The main weakness are the massed enemies. You can just run around with this weapon as long as you either let others take care of Slaves or just use your AoE melee(Flamberge / Rapier). The traits: ( Rupture, Ammo Hold, Targeteer / Scavenger ). The rupture and the AH are basically the nobrainer choices here. One doubles your effectiveness(Rupture) and the other allows you to just around shooting rats(AH). Now, if you feel uneasy about the prospect of aiming at the distant, often moving targets with nothing but your crosshair(didn't it use to be a dot like in melee?), take Targeteer. Otherwise, Scavenger will pull its weight and then some
It pairs best with AoE melee weaponry, as already stated. I'd consider the Rapier just for the aesthetical reasons.

Volley Crossbow:

I don't like the look or the feel of this...ballista. What I would also like is that the both attacks are triple shots, normal three bolts in a row (like the letter I ) and power just like it is now. No matter. This weapon's a less powerful Crossbow that trades its unique strenghts for the ability to COMPLETELY demolish Roger. Imo, that is not a good deal unless you're hellbent on playing either the Dungeons or the Summoner's Peak(maybe even the White Rat). Aka, the popular levels(yeah, right). Its biggest drawback is its recharge. That thing's ridiculous! Over 3s! So, you best watch it when using it in battle. Its ammo count is really misleading too. The normal attacks are less powerful(and hit up to TWO not FIVE enemies!) than the Crossbow's and the power attacks really munch through your ammo. I don't like this weapon a bit. It's a tool to get rid of Roger, simply as that. But, he's really not that big of a problem, even on Cata...ah fk it! The traits: ( Master Crafted, Extra Capacity, Hail of Doom / Skullcrack / Ammo Hold ). The first two are nigh mandatory, especially the MC! Imo, this weapon could've perfectly retained the 50% MC from prior to 1,5 and it wouldn't be OP. Far from it. EC is meant to minimise the chance of you needing to reload IN BATTLE(do I need to explain this?) + adds some 33% damage to your clip(deadly vs Roger) The last trait depends on a large amount of traits. The HoD is a flatout increase to your Roger flattening potential, but requires aiming at the head. The Skullcrack(soon to be fixed) allows you just to spray and pray at the Roger. The AH makes the Accuser(oh, sorry, the Volley) more of a well rounded weapon.
It pairs best with the Rapier really. It needs that mobility and BADLY. I guess it could work with AoE goodness that is Flamberge too.

COCLUSION:

These weapons are all perfectly useable. Imo, the only one which truly needs help is the Repeater Pistol. But even then, it comboes rather nicely with the Flamberge. Flamberge could also REALLY use that +1 damage. A very nice balance is reached where it's not about what is the most effective, but about what the player prefers. Although, honestly, Viktor could REALLY use a proper Ranged AoE weapon(a Bombard or something + maybe trade Falchion to Markus).

///

Right, your thoughts? I am especially interested in thoughts of veterans like Grim, Arda, Kyrial, Torbaal and the like.

[The Walrus]

I've used the repeater pistol extensively on Cata, I think it gets a lot of uneccessary hate. On the other hand brace of pistols might be one of the most overrated weapons in the game.

To get the most out of repeater pistol you really need extra capacity and targeteer. Against the ogre both repeater and brace do 12 damage per shot, and even with reloads mixed in brace rapid fire is still slower and less accurate than the repeater pistol primary fire. So repeater pistol edges out brace in ogre dps in most every situation since you can still move full speed and dodge while firing the repeater pistol. With targeteer you can use the repeater charged attack to delete any special as well as stormvermin from a deceptively long range in just one burst.

One of my favortie things about the repeater pistol is the ability to remove stormvermin who are mixed in with a horde. One push, quick swap and burst and you can remove that threat completely without need to take the time to line up a perfect shot. I've used the brace of pistols quite a bit on Cata but I'm always thinking "this would be dead already if I had the repeater". Thinning out oncoming hordes, or picking off random trash, brace is great. Although regular crossbow might be better at those roles.

I'm really happy someone else loves endurance on the rapier. I actually like my bloodlust endurance dev blow rapier better on cata than my killing blow regrowth off balance one. That being said I rarely put down my falchion these days.

[Mr. Quiet]

This was very informative and well written. Nice to read a coherent and comprehensive post once in awhile. As a casual player, this is great material to read!

[Gorwe]

Originally posted by The Walrus:

I've used the repeater pistol extensively on Cata, I think it gets a lot of uneccessary hate. On the other hand brace of pistols might be one of the most overrated weapons in the game.

To get the most out of repeater pistol you really need extra capacity and targeteer. Against the ogre both repeater and brace do 12 damage per shot, and even with reloads mixed in brace rapid fire is still slower and less accurate than the repeater pistol primary fire. So repeater pistol edges out brace in ogre dps in most every situation since you can still move full speed and dodge while firing the repeater pistol. With targeteer you can use the repeater charged attack to delete any special as well as stormvermin from a deceptively long range in just one burst.

One of my favortie things about the repeater pistol is the ability to remove stormvermin who are mixed in with a horde. One push, quick swap and burst and you can remove that threat completely without need to take the time to line up a perfect shot. I've used the brace of pistols quite a bit on Cata but I'm always thinking "this would be dead already if I had the repeater". Thinning out oncoming hordes, or picking off random trash, brace is great. Although regular crossbow might be better at those roles.

I'm really happy someone else loves endurance on the rapier. I actually like my bloodlust endurance dev blow rapier better on cata than my killing blow regrowth off balance one. That being said I rarely put down my falchion these days.

I don't deny the usefulness of Repeater. I just got reassured of its usefulness when paired with a Flamberge. It's just...the ammo. It's so not efficient. And as I said, the Pistols are the happy medium. It does both the job of a Crossbow AND of a Repeater. It's tough to say no to that(especially when the Rupture's in there). The one trait combo that I personally think would be good ( Rupture, Skullcrack / Hail of Doom, Ammo Hold / Targeteer ) just outlines these traits perfectly. But I wouldn't advise others to use it, especially without Targeteer(this combo makes you choose between AH and Target and that's really not an ideal situation for a newcomer).

Also, Endurance is such an undervalued trait. It's criminal really.

Originally posted by 86'ersLook! It's Bill Murray!!:

This was very informative and well written. Nice to read a coherent and comprehensive post once in awhile. As a casual player, this is great material to read!

Thanks. I'll be doing more of these as time goes. First things first. To get veteran's opinions.

[Kyrial]

You should learn a little more how to use the wh weapons imo. Im not agree with your whole analyze. Especially the RP and traits.

[toebar]

Generally well written-- I havent played WH much so I can't contest most of what you say.
Kyrial, do you have particular disagreements-- saying just that you don't agree isn't that fair (or helpful!) :)

With regards to the crossbow, (which I've played with a lot as DR), I agree with a lot of what you said, but I think you're under valuing it. It's definitely worth mentioning that it will one shot kill SV in NM and cata with a headshot. Also, there's a lot of times when rats are in a line or clump and you can easily get 4 or 5 kills. That has a lot of potential to proc bloodlust or regrowth (AND you can have both these at once on the xbow). That penetration is also helpful in killing packmasters through a crowd (before OR after they've grabbed a teammate :) )
As to traits, MC is good, but I wouldnt say its absolutely needed since the reload isnt too bad. HoD is good. Rupture I would stay away from since it already penetrates well. Once skullcracker is fixed in 1.6 it might be worth a look for extra damage on specials (mostly would be needed in cata). Scavenger is definitely good as well, for the same reasons as bloodlust.

[doom_hamster]

All weps are balanced good for NM, all have their purpose. But, on cataclysm BoP and 1h axe are unable to one-shot clanrats in the body, and that ability was a large part of their usability on NM, imo. 6 dmg of both weapons primary attacks is tied to 6 hp of NM clanrats.

On cata, 1h axe retains its good effectiveness vs storms and imo, that's the only thing 1h axe is good for, on that diff.

Unless you can headshot clanrats every time, thats hard, heads of rats move frantically when they move and attack, and landing melee headshots with horizontal swings is a difficult task on itself. Plus hands of rats can get in the way, denying you the headshot. If you know a method how to do headshots reliably please tell me. On the other hand we have falchion with its fast power attack that oneshots cata clanrats in the body. 1h axe charged attack can do it too, but its too slow, and the speed vs ambient clanrat encounters is important.

Vs horde of slaves, 1h axe have 0 crowd control ability, entirely not safe to use, or safe to use, if you most of the time will stay in block or push, between strike or two, that have low effect on horde.

Why take melee weapon that is only good vs SV? If you can take repeater pistol, xbow or even volley xbow, that have good effectiveness vs SV? WH dont have something like shotgun with bash attack or drakepistols, or hagbane that can control the crowds, to pair with 1h axe.

Why i think BoP is a subpar option for cata i described in my guide, also read repeater handgun of Empire soldier as a continuation of my thoughts.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=824736725

To Gorwe: to AoE with 2h sword on cata take dmg boon from a contract or use charged attacks, or better do both, read 2h sword in my guide for more info.

[Lego Evinion]

I can't agree with a lot of things you've said. Rapier, for example, benefits a lot a from KB which makes it viable at any difficulty (try to roll something like KB, Scavenger/Regrowth(n), Off balance). It has an infinite chain of very fast, long-range, 2-target strikes that apply decent stagger. The pistol shots can still kill or at least hurt specials if you're out of ammo, or you can kill some annoying trash rats. And as long as you're keeping an aggro of rats away from yourself you can melt the hordes. For solo play, though, falchion will probably be more viable.

1-handed axe is, probably the best single target dps weapon. It's charged attack deals 10 damage and normal deals 6. So, it 1-shots a cata clan and 2-shots a cata SV, and I don't see how it can be bad. And it's easier to headshot with it as Victor, since he's higher than Bardin. Though it struggles vs hordes and falchion is probably the better version of an axe that also hits 3 targets with normal attacks and 2 with charged.

Pretty much agreed about 2-handed sword. But my main problem with it that it's quite bad against SVs and is so slow, with wide windows that leave you open for recieving damage.

Crossbow is a good all-round weapon. Only problem that it's projectile-based, not hitscan like powder weapons. And it still may make a good use of on-kill traits, like bloodlust or scavenger.

Brace of pistols, may be your best option even for cata if you're good enough at headshots. You can also roll something like skullcracker, rupture and targeteer.

Repeater pistol is my least-liked weapon of his. But it does it's job against SVs. And, as far as I remember, it deals the same damage to resistant targets as the BoP, only with a lesser HS multiplier. So, it still can be used against packmasters and ogres.

Volley crossbow is simply a beast if used well enough. Will be even greater if skullcracker gets fixed in 1.6.

Everything said above is only my opinion based on most of my playtime spent as WH and shouldn't be taken as the only truth. Cheers

[darth.crevette]

Normal Regrowth on the Rapier is pretty pathetic imho. It may hit fast, but with only 2 targets, 5% won't get you far.

Compare with other weapons:
- elf 1h sword hits almost as fast, but four targets and Regrowth is at 10%
- 1h hammer/mace is noticeably slower, but hits infinite targets - and again, 10%.

The Regrowth on the rapier just can't compare with any of those; maybe if it was 10% as well it may be worth it. Offensively though, KB works great with that speed.

[Lego Evinion]

Originally posted by darth.crevette:

Normal Regrowth on the Rapier is pretty pathetic imho. It may hit fast, but with only 2 targets, 5% won't get you far.

Compare with other weapons:
- elf 1h sword hits almost as fast, but four targets and Regrowth is at 10%
- 1h hammer/mace is noticeably slower, but hits infinite targets - and again, 10%.

The Regrowth on the rapier just can't compare with any of those; maybe if it was 10% as well it may be worth it. Offensively though, KB works great with that speed.

Totally agreed with that. Though 1-handed sword is considerably slower and it's hard to hit 4 targets with such uncomfortable swings pattern and it's not an infinite chain of attacks, since you're forced to interrupt the stab when fighting a horde. But WH has no access to those weapons. Devs, probably considered 10% regrowth op on such a fast weapon. And you may replace it by scavenger as I suggested. I only put it there as an example if you still want some healing and your ranged weapon can't do it for you. But, when you are good enough to not recieve any damage you don't need any healing traits.

[Lunethex]

I find that I still need to heal because people keep shooting me in the back.

Particularly under strength potions.

[Lego Evinion]

Originally posted by Lunethex:

I find that I still need to heal because people keep shooting me in the back.

Particularly under strength potions.

Yeah, or when someone with pot share suddenly drinks a speed potion and you're completely screwed, finding yourself hitting the wall and burning by all sorts of ff possible.

[Gorwe]

Originally posted by Lego Evinion:

I can't agree with a lot of things you've said. Rapier, for example, benefits a lot a from KB which makes it viable at any difficulty (try to roll something like KB, Scavenger/Regrowth(n), Off balance). It has an infinite chain of very fast, long-range, 2-target strikes that apply decent stagger. The pistol shots can still kill or at least hurt specials if you're out of ammo, or you can kill some annoying trash rats. And as long as you're keeping an aggro of rats away from yourself you can melt the hordes. For solo play, though, falchion will probably be more viable.

1-handed axe is, probably the best single target dps weapon. It's charged attack deals 10 damage and normal deals 6. So, it 1-shots a cata clan and 2-shots a cata SV, and I don't see how it can be bad. And it's easier to headshot with it as Victor, since he's higher than Bardin. Though it struggles vs hordes and falchion is probably the better version of an axe that also hits 3 targets with normal attacks and 2 with charged.

Pretty much agreed about 2-handed sword. But my main problem with it that it's quite bad against SVs and is so slow, with wide windows that leave you open for recieving damage.

Crossbow is a good all-round weapon. Only problem that it's projectile-based, not hitscan like powder weapons. And it still may make a good use of on-kill traits, like bloodlust or scavenger.

Brace of pistols, may be your best option even for cata if you're good enough at headshots. You can also roll something like skullcracker, rupture and targeteer.

Repeater pistol is my least-liked weapon of his. But it does it's job against SVs. And, as far as I remember, it deals the same damage to resistant targets as the BoP, only with a lesser HS multiplier. So, it still can be used against packmasters and ogres.

Volley crossbow is simply a beast if used well enough. Will be even greater if skullcracker gets fixed in 1.6.

Everything said above is only my opinion based on most of my playtime spent as WH and shouldn't be taken as the only truth. Cheers :chug:

KB is such an overrated trait. Its only mileage comes from either weapons that can't kill properly(shield weapons except the Axe combo) or the weapons that hit a LOT of enemies, but damage only a few(Maces of all kinds). But even in that case, when are you going to realistically go vs more than 6-8 rats at once? Yes, the Rapier's attack speed is very fast, but the fact it hits only two targets and that it is actually very good at killing provided you headshot like 40%+, means you shouldn't take KB.

Axe is bad because he has NO access to any kind of AoE(well, except the Crossbow pseudo AoE) if you choose it. And with Falchion on the same character...I mean, it's perfectly useable, but its potential is squandered imo(unlike Bardin who has an awesome piece of AoE in his ranged, but that's a discussion for another time). It by itself is just fine, but its usefulness gets bogged down when you start to put combinations into equation and compare with other weapons and their combinations.

[Pungent]

Just want to point out that the 2h sword is a Flambard, not a Flamberge. Similar appearance (wavy blade), but Flamberge weapons are 1h.

[Gorwe]

Originally posted by Pungent:

Just want to point out that the 2h sword is a Flambard, not a Flamberge. Similar appearance (wavy blade), but Flamberge weapons are 1h.

Ah, I guessed it was a mistake on FS' side. So, a Flammard is a 2H and Flamberge a 1H? Or is it even more delicate and Flammard = (wavy) Claymore and Flamberge = (wavy) Longsword?

[darth.crevette]

Originally posted by Pungent:

Just want to point out that the 2h sword is a Flambard, not a Flamberge. Similar appearance (wavy blade), but Flamberge weapons are 1h.

Actually I think "flamberge" only refers to a type of wave-like blade, which can be found on both one-handed and two-handed swords.