Where do you get the "fogman parasites" idea from?

[TamTroll]

I've run all up and down the foglands, I've been to the fog tower, and I've even been playing a fogman-only game where the fog queen returns to reclaim her people.

Not once have i ever seen anything suggesting that fogmen have parasites in their brains? at MOST i think i saw ONE conversation in a bar in Mongrel where one guy poses the idea as a theory.

So far, I've seen nothing to back it up though, no notes, no books, no writing, no environmental clues... Honestly i'm more convinced that the fogmen have just gone mad because their queen died and nothing more.


So how has "the fogmen have brain parasites" become the most generally accepted explanation for why the fogmen are they way they are?

[Shidan]

It comes from the player character hivers.

Non-Hive PC: The fog islands of Mongrel. Only the most desperate ever come here. Refugees from the Holy Nation, hoping to lose their pursuers to the Fogmen...

Non-Hive PC 2: Wait, Fogmen? What are Fogmen!?

Hiver PC: People of the Deadhive... We shouldn't try to cross this zone.

Non-Hive PC 2: What's the Deadhive?

Hiver PC: Cousins of other Hives. Lost their minds to parasite. Controls them from the inside. Nothing can be done for them now. We stick to high places, safer out of the fog.

It's impossible to be certain of course, as we just have to trust them. But it is important to note that no player character dialog has ever been proven to be a lie, at worst they omit details.

I presume this is a design choice, so that the player doesn't feel like they can't trust their party. As the devs have explained similar reasoning for why party members can't leave you on their own.

But yeah, regardless of whether you believe the theory or not, that's where it originates from. And it is notably the only in-game explanation of the condition.

[TamTroll]

Originally posted by Shidan:

It comes from the player character hivers.

Non-Hive PC: The fog islands of Mongrel. Only the most desperate ever come here. Refugees from the Holy Nation, hoping to lose their pursuers to the Fogmen...

Non-Hive PC 2: Wait, Fogmen? What are Fogmen!?

Hiver PC: People of the Deadhive... We shouldn't try to cross this zone.

Non-Hive PC 2: What's the Deadhive?

Hiver PC: Cousins of other Hives. Lost their minds to parasite. Controls them from the inside. Nothing can be done for them now. We stick to high places, safer out of the fog.

It's impossible to be certain of course, as we just have to trust them. But it is important to note that no player character dialog has ever been proven to be a lie, at worst they omit details.

I presume this is a design choice, so that the player doesn't feel like they can't trust their party. As the devs have explained similar reasoning for why party members can't leave you on their own.

But yeah, regardless of whether you believe the theory or not, that's where it originates from. And it is notably the only in-game explanation of the condition.

Ahhh okay that must be it then. the only hive characters i've ever had have been fogmen and modded darkhive, and i think the game doesn't quite recognize them as "Hive" since they say "i feel like a whole new human!" whenever i recruit them using the recruit anyone mod.

or at least i've never had humans and hive side-by-side before.

So okay, that makes sense.

[tikiman572]

Interesting. I've never come across this line of dialogue before so I always believed the Fogmen were the results of Hivers separated from their Hive and being unable to deal with the withdrawal of the Queen's pheromones. What I'd like to know is what precisely this parasite is and, perhaps more importantly, is it capable of infecting more than just Hivers? Perhaps the Fogmen and Cannibals are more similar to each other than what initially meets the eye.

[kaiyl_kariashi]

to be fair, they're likely not intentionally lying, but rather that's what they're told by the Loyalist Princes that directly attend the Queen as to what happened to the Deadhive, in order to shift blame for what the fogmen have done away from the Western Hive.

Since they exile their fallen instead of killing them like the Southern hive, the Fogmen get a constant stream of new recruits to replace their losses from Western Hive exiles.

Though we know a Queen dying results in most hivers becoming Fogmen, even in completely different areas of the world.

The Southern Hive has nothing to do with any of the regions where the Screamers, Fogmen, or cannibals are, and yet they become Fogmen Hive-wide if their queen dies.


So it seems more likely that the Fogmen are simply the result of a hiver that goes insane due to not fully becoming a ronin once they begin experiencing the pheromone withdrawals, and still needs the trappings of living in a hive to function and eventually find their way to the Foglands (or if a sufficient number turn all at once, create a new deadhive elsewhere).


And if the pheromones are the only thing protecting hivers from the brain parasites, than ronin should be just as vulnerable as any other hiver is, and yet there's no risk to ronins that we know of for that.

[JediKnightSky]

Originally posted by kaiyl_kariashi:

to be fair, they're likely not intentionally lying, but rather that's what they're told by the Loyalist Princes that directly attend the Queen as to what happened to the Deadhive, in order to shift blame for what the fogmen have done away from the Western Hive.

Since they exile their fallen instead of killing them like the Southern hive, the Fogmen get a constant stream of new recruits to replace their losses from Western Hive exiles.

Though we know a Queen dying results in most hivers becoming Fogmen, even in completely different areas of the world.

The Southern Hive has nothing to do with any of the regions where the Screamers, Fogmen, or cannibals are, and yet they become Fogmen Hive-wide if their queen dies.


So it seems more likely that the Fogmen are simply the result of a hiver that goes insane due to not fully becoming a ronin once they begin experiencing the pheromone withdrawals, and still needs the trappings of living in a hive to function and eventually find their way to the Foglands (or if a sufficient number turn all at once, create a new deadhive elsewhere).


And if the pheromones are the only thing protecting hivers from the brain parasites, than ronin should be just as vulnerable as any other hiver is, and yet there's no risk to ronins that we know of for that.

Interesting ideas. I myself have pondered the how of Beep making it to Mongrel lacking skill and speed, and oft pondered he was actually living among the fogmen or at least traveling among them freely until he joins up with the player party.

[Shidan]

All in all, I just can't see the devs writing lore about the parasite, just to turn around and have it be a complete lie. When the devs tell lies in Kenshi's lore, they generally include hints of truth. Whether it's a story based in truth that has been altered and forgotten over time, or whether it's a blatant falsehood with the truth out there to be found in certain dialog/books.

Besides there is no reason to lie to their own drones, there isn't really much sense of independent thought in the hive, it's all drowned out in a chorus of brainless loyalty to the hive. And honestly, them going mad if they're not on the pheromones would be an even better story for loyalty, instead of a parasite that throws the source onto an external entity.

Originally posted by kaiyl_kariashi:

to be fair, they're likely not intentionally lying, but rather that's what they're told by the Loyalist Princes that directly attend the Queen as to what happened to the Deadhive, in order to shift blame for what the fogmen have done away from the Western Hive.

So it seems more likely that the Fogmen are simply the result of a hiver that goes insane due to not fully becoming a ronin once they begin experiencing the pheromone withdrawals, and still needs the trappings of living in a hive to function and eventually find their way to the Foglands (or if a sufficient number turn all at once, create a new deadhive elsewhere).

The thing is, there is definitely some major biological change happening inside them as a result of going fogman, they're not just normal hivers who are insane. Their blood changes colour, princes becoming a yellow-green, and other fogmen having a gray-blue.

There is also some clear hierarchy, where each drone has exactly one job. Princes eat, soldiers guard the princes, and the workers capture food. It is all purely centered around the princes, and neither soldiers or workers get to eat ever. And none sleep, as their camps have no beds.

In my opinion, a parasite makes more sense than just going insane. As their behavior makes them seem like tools. Everything centered around feeding the princes, which are notably different biologically than even the other fogmen. Makes me think they are probably used as part of the reproduction of the parasite, collecting food to feed the parasite and/or its offspring prior to spreading.

Originally posted by kaiyl_kariashi:

And if the pheromones are the only thing protecting hivers from the brain parasites, than ronin should be just as vulnerable as any other hiver is, and yet there's no risk to ronins that we know of for that.

Actually they wouldn't necessarily. If the pheromones block the parasite, it would likely mean the parasite takes over by exerting control using the pheromone receptor, or the part of the brain that receives signals from it.

Ronins however have already built immunity to the Queen's pheromones, and thus even if infected it would be relatively benign, and it could not exert control over them.

[kaiyl_kariashi]

that's just how the hives work normally.

Princes rule/manage their hives, soldiers protect them, drones provide food for the hive.

there's just no queen in the picture anymore so now the princes are calling the shots with zero oversight but aren't fully ronin either, so while they're more high functioning than other hivers, they would still be mentally affected by that loss of purpose.

the switch to pseudo-religious aspects is likely just to fill the void the lack of purpose has caused, with the phisological effects simply being long term pheromone withdrawal for those that failed to become ronin, but whose bodies are still craving it.


especially as Southerners suffer the same problems if they turn Fog.

it seems very unlikely that such a parasite would be able to exist so far away and in a completely different environment of a completely seperate hive that has no overlap between each other, as non-fallen apparently can't enter another hive's territory due to their conflicting pheromones making it impossible to do so.

[TamTroll]

pretty sure i've seen Soldiers eat captured humanoids before. and i'd assume the workers still eat, just maybe not part of the big ritual, or maybe they get the scraps at the end.

for sleeping, i think we need to assume that they still sleep, but just sleep on the ground wherever is moderately safe and comfortable rather then in a dedicated bed spot. you don't see bonedogs with beds for example, and there's no reason to believe they don't sleep.

[Shidan]

Originally posted by kaiyl_kariashi:

that's just how the hives work normally.

Princes rule/manage their hives, soldiers protect them, drones provide food for the hive.

there's just no queen in the picture anymore so now the princes are calling the shots with zero oversight but aren't fully ronin either, so while they're more high functioning than other hivers, they would still be mentally affected by that loss of purpose.

But it's not how they normally act. They don't rest, they don't guard their territory, they don't farm, or even use equipment besides weapons.

They go from a collective working towards the survival and prosperity of the hive as a whole, to everything fully dedicated to the princes, and all else is irrelevant. The workers, drones, and camps are all completely unimportant and not cared for. The normal hive doesn't see them that way, they all perform vital roles, and are fed, protected, and given shelter.

Not to mention the complete lack of speech. They used to be quite talkative, and suddenly they all completely forget how to speak?

Originally posted by kaiyl_kariashi:

the switch to pseudo-religious aspects is likely just to fill the void the lack of purpose has caused, with the phisological effects simply being long term pheromone withdrawal for those that failed to become ronin, but whose bodies are still craving it.

But the princes differ even compared to the other fogmen. If it was just a pheromone withdrawal, they would all be affected the same.

Originally posted by kaiyl_kariashi:

especially as Southerners suffer the same problems if they turn Fog.

it seems very unlikely that such a parasite would be able to exist so far away and in a completely different environment of a completely seperate hive that has no overlap between each other,

Unless they come from the same land, and simply both brought the parasite with them, that has laid mostly dormant.

Originally posted by kaiyl_kariashi:

as non-fallen apparently can't enter another hive's territory due to their conflicting pheromones making it impossible to do so.

No clue where you're getting this, nothing has ever indicated that they can't enter each other's territory. They don't, but they also live nowhere near each other. There is no reason to suspect the pheromones causing issues.

[Shidan]

Originally posted by TamTroll:

pretty sure i've seen Soldiers eat captured humanoids before. and i'd assume the workers still eat, just maybe not part of the big ritual, or maybe they get the scraps at the end.

They only eat due to AI bugs, when a soldier or worker ends up the squad leader of a squad that was supposed to have a Prince. The AI is set up so that only Princes eat unless the prince dies.

It's certainly not impossible that the others lorewise eat the scraps, but that still is a drastic difference between the drones and princes.

Originally posted by TamTroll:

for sleeping, i think we need to assume that they still sleep, but just sleep on the ground wherever is moderately safe and comfortable rather then in a dedicated bed spot. you don't see bonedogs with beds for example, and there's no reason to believe they don't sleep.

Thing is, other factions actually have camps with beds, and fires. Even the fishmen do, they sleep on piles of fish. The fogmen camps only have one purpose from what we see, eating. Nothing to sleep on, nothing to sit on, not even any ground sitting nodes like some camps have.

Also, bonedogs do sleep, they actually do have a sleeping animation and will sleep at their nests on the ground.

[TamTroll]

right, so i'm proposing that Fogmen are closer to Bonedogs then they are to other humanoids, they just sleep on the ground.

[Shidan]

The devs didn't however give them any sleeping objects, not even any invisible ones or makeshift piles of stuff like fishmen got, things they've done for other factions.

So why skip fogmen specifically? Coincidentally the one faction implied in lore to be controlled by some other entity.

[TamTroll]

i would assume because it's not really needed for gameplay? Like children don't exist in-game either, but we don't jump to the conclusion of "nobody has babies in kenshi", we just assume they exist in-lore, but are not included in-game for a variety of reasons.

Considering the dense fog, and the dangers of the fogmen, you're very unlikely to see them anyways unless you're going out of the way for it. so why waste resources on an invisible object nobody will see?

[Shidan]

But they have a history with adding those details. It's not comparable to children, which are missing game wide, not to mention there are multiple lore references to children showing they exist in universe.

Go to any camp in the game and you'll find they are full of various interactable objects scattered around, to provide a sense of life and realism to the camps, making them seem like people are living there. And they do have invisible objects for cases where they want people on the ground instead, which they frequently use for poorer factions.

Just seems to me that them lacking any basic creature comforts fits with the parasite theory suggested in the lore, more than the idea that they are insane and coincidentally the sole camp that didn't get any due to an oversight.

[TamTroll]

okay but they're still living organisms, and living organisms still need sleep. There are no living creatures on record as being truly sleepless.

I think it makes more sense to just have these guys lie down and fall asleep wherever they may be at the time then to assume "they never sleep. EVER." because that would mean you're average fogmen would have a lifespan of what, a few days at most? And after the first twelve hours or so it'd start wearing out.

If fogmen weren't able to sleep, i feel like we'd see a lot more instances of them just dropping dead in the middle of the foglands with no visible cause.

At BEST i could see Fogmen acting like ant workers, in that instead of sleeping for multiple hours, they sleep for just over a minute or two several hundred times a day. This would make sense, since Hivers are considered "bug-like" and act a lot like ants and other eusocial insects anyways.