No Guns, a new explanation

[wimble_king]

I was thinking the other day about Archimedes discovery of water displacement, and marvelled at the fact that people had been hopping into pools for centuries and nobody ever thought that they could use the displacement to measure volume. It seems totally obvious to us now, but nobody noticed it for who knows how long, even though it was right in front of their faces every day. I think there may be a similar explanation for firearms and Kenshi.

My idea starts with the notion that the Ancients themselves didn't use firearms, because they where obsolete in their time. It may sound like a funny notion to us, since firearms are the standard in our world, but consider how useless a firearm would be in a war where both sides are throwing legions of giant Kaijus at each other, and where making doomsday weapons is easier than training and equipping hordes of infantry. In their war before their fall, it would have proven fruitless to arm tiny bipedal beings with outdated combustion technology, so why would they? And before you say "Arm the Kaijus with guns!" why would they stop there, when they could arm them with nuke launchers?

Now, if the ancients hadn't used firearms for eons because of obsolescence, it's reasonable to assume that the newer civilisations, who have relied largely upon rediscovering old tech, would not have ever thought about powder weapons, nor discovered any mention of them.
Drawstring tech for bows and crossbows is a fairly more basic tech to reasearch on ones own, even if they didn't rediscover crossbows, I still think it would be fair to say that crossbows where simply the tech they developed first, being more rudimentary than rifling a pipe and making a boom chamber, and so that's the tech they stuck with.

Getting back to Archemedes and water displacement, I'd liken that to the current civs having obvious combustion engines, but somehow not thinking to make modern ballistics. It could very well be that since they have no reference from the ancients, and crossbows do the trick for them, that nobody has really felt the need nor had that eureka moment where they put the two ideas together in their head.

Of course, a much simpler explanation might be that there aren't any good sources for gunpowder around.

[GIJoe597]

What is a kaijus?

[wimble_king]

Originally posted by GIJoe597:

What is a kaijus?

Giant monsters like Godzilla

[kaiyl_kariashi]

i think it's just more that guns are unreliable in such a world.

While they know the principles, the ease of use of crossbows has simply rendered the requirements of gunpowder weaponry pointless. Especially when we're dealing with crossbows with the punching power of an anti-material rifle (at the upper levels). And lacking any of the downsides and limitations of gunpowder weaponry.

[Cattrina]

I do agree that your theory is good. I like it. But Kalyl is right, sand does impede guns.

[leahcim]

The reason for guns not getting reinvented might just be that the size of the fighthing forces in Kenshi is just too small and undiciplined to make simple guns seem like a good idea.
In the beginning of their developement, guns were only usable since there were large forces on both sides marching towards one another. So it was difficult to not hit someone now and then. Combine that with conditions that aren't really suitable for guns (sandstorms, acid rains) and the need to fight animals charging you and are extremely hard to kill. You might not really be interested in using a 15th century gun that works only once in a while and only hits the beak-thing at a distance of 3-5 meters.

It basically took centuries of development until you could aim your gun at an individual target and actually hope to hit it. But without a reason to use the low-tech versions in the first place, the development might never get to a usable phase.

[Marmarmar34]

Ok so people are making arguments about rifles, what about blunderbusses?

[Hatsune Neko Gaming]

blunderbuss or rifles, same thing. just from different eras.

[Craig25]

Originally posted by wimble_king:

Of course, a much simpler explanation might be that there aren't any good sources for gunpowder around.

Honestly that's the reason. We only invented guns and canons etc when we started experimenting with gunpowder.

[donder172]

Originally posted by leahcim:

The reason for guns not getting reinvented might just be that the size of the fighthing forces in Kenshi is just too small and undiciplined to make simple guns seem like a good idea.
In the beginning of their developement, guns were only usable since there were large forces on both sides marching towards one another. So it was difficult to not hit someone now and then. Combine that with conditions that aren't really suitable for guns (sandstorms, acid rains) and the need to fight animals charging you and are extremely hard to kill. You might not really be interested in using a 15th century gun that works only once in a while and only hits the beak-thing at a distance of 3-5 meters.

It basically took centuries of development until you could aim your gun at an individual target and actually hope to hit it. But without a reason to use the low-tech versions in the first place, the development might never get to a usable phase.

If I'm not wrong, the first real world firearms were also pretty heavy and not very mobile. Making them not useful against nomadic factions, if any were presence. As was near China and Eastern Europe.

As for now, too small forces and mobility still being an issue. Though, they might be useful defensively, a bit.

[b3nt0]

what about cannons .... and catapults

[pearsanity]

Originally posted by Craig25:

Originally posted by wimble_king:

Of course, a much simpler explanation might be that there aren't any good sources for gunpowder around.

Honestly that's the reason. We only invented guns and canons etc when we started experimenting with gunpowder.

Not to mention they may not have knowledge of the materials needed or its just lost to them in how create explosives, especially since it looked like Titan and Lasers were the rage for the previous civilization .

[thecelt]

Interesting theory, I agree smokeless powder is out of the question as we know it and older black powder would have major logistics issues. Getting enough Potassium Nitrate or "Saltpeter" as it was once called would be a challenge it takes a lot of cow urine to grow enough crystals, I haven't found any major bat caves either.

Then the sulphur could only be sourced near an active gas vent in a volcano and that is literally the only way you could get it in Kenshi. I haven't seen such a gas vent in my travels but I wouldn't be surprised if I missed it. Charcoal wouldn't be too hard, the swamp has plenty of wood. Also, there is plenty of drinkers in the bars to collect urine from as a binding agent.

Really getting the first one or maybe two ingredients in enough volume to justify the building of anything but a large cannon would seem a waste. The cannon would likely only be a last ditch base defense weapon capable of a few shots at best. To take the time, effort, and resources to build a rifle, make shot, make powder and then try to carry that all over Kenshi would be a major waste.

Also with an old black powder weapon reloading is very slow so after the first shot the enemy could easily close the distance to engage you in melee so you would either have to throw the rifle down to draw a blade making it likely the weapon is damaged or lost or you use it as a club and risk damaging it that way making any powder and shot you are carrying worthless without something to use it in, oh and you have to keep your powder dry and uncontaminated too. A crossbow has bolts that can be recovered and a saber doesn't need to be reloaded; A rifle without ammunition is just weight.

It may not be that nobody has discovered the mixture, it's just too bloody hard to effectively source the ingredients and to justify the effort of making and transporting firearms with all the other problems I mention above.

Even if the skeletons have the knowledge they likely wouldn't share it knowing that the first thing humans would do is start using it to wipe each other and everyone else out. That idea has a hole in it though as the skeletons to the south probably wouldn't mind using it on everyone else if they could.

[The Golden Knight]

There are no firearms in Kenshi because it goes against the developers' creative vision. THAT SAID, there is a way it's been somewhat roughly modded into the game, if you know where to look on Steam Workshop...

As for rifles without ammo, that was answered by the bayonet. And "bayonet charging" is a historically accurate precedent. Muzzleloaders were the first instance of firearms that became tactically practical, but only when fielded by mass quantities of troops (something that, hypothetically speaking, only the big factions or a really awesome player settlement could summon the manpower for). Muzzleloader tech sits somewhere between the medieval sword-and-bow level of Kenshi versus the robotic sci-fi principles of Kenshi. So again, aside from the "gameplay" side of things (and that "creative vision"), there's definitely a valid question of: "WHERE are the FIREARMS?!"

[firegetic]

bro wrote a gyatt damn book

[GIJoe597]

Not sure what "books" you read. But at best that would qualify as a leaflet.