Anti-Slavers and the fight against the UC

[N.KagnitO)))]

After playing for about 400 hours (GoG version), and destroying the HN on multiple occasions (and fooling around building bases in various locations and fighting minor factions), I've decided to give fighting the UC a go.

Originally posted by K98:

I think there is a number of things to consider - the UC and HN find themselves in very different situations they have to deal with respectively , and have very different goals.

The HN settles the most fertile, hospitable and safe location on the entire map. In addition, it is also situated perfectly from a strategic viewpoint - smack dab in the middle, compact cluster of cities easily sealed by just two fortresses thanks to the natural barriers shielding HN territories.
It allows them to get away with their refusal to utilise technology while they also hold the only area where you can easily generate a constant food surplus. I believe it is very important to realise that in Kenshis setting resources are extremely scarce - sure, as the player you can of course always find a way to keep your limited group fed, but now try to apply that to an entire society. In that way the HN has the by far best position out of all factions.

The UC on the other hand is the only faction that comes close to forming an actual civilisation, controlling almot half the map and having actual institutions and complex hierarchies. They control a ver wide , spread out territory encompassing some of the poorest areas of the map. Even in their core territories traveling from one city to another can be a challenge since even there are dangerous areas and wildlife about. Its territory is split in the middle by some of the most dangerous areas of the game.

In my view, many of the "evils" of the UC are just necessities to keep together and actual cvilisation under conditions of extreme scarcity. For example, the traders guild is absolutely necessary since without its resources and independent power it would be impossible to keep trade flowing through the vast stretches of hostile terrain separating the UC. Even Eyegore freely admits that the nobles are another necessary evil - their privileges turn them into total arsewipes, but they deliver the vital administrative apparatus without which the UC would just collapse on itself.

Last but not least is slavery, one of the main points against the UC.
But do consider that slavery isnt as black/white as many people today make it out to be. Hostorically, it has often been used as a form of social welfare system, most prominent examples would be the Roman and Aztec empire. The UC uses it in a similar way. Sure, the HN can afford to just hand out food to Greenlanders (and only Greenlanders) down on their luck, considering their overabundace of resources and limited population. The UC cant afford that.

Under light of this, something superficially nonsensical like declaring poverty illegal makes sense. If you cannot provide for yourself, you will be fed and clothed in exchange for labour, even if nonvoluntary. Beats being a hungry bandit. Now Mahunters may sem nasty - but if you cant deal with them, the net snadskimmer will kill you. It may sem hard to grasp , but ALL resources are precious - that includes labour. Citizens getting themselves killed or starving to death is a catastrophe for the UC. Hence they try to preserve your life and labout against your will, which is what slavery does. Even outlaws dont corak out in the desert, but get collected, saved and put to work. Nasty and cruel, but gives the UC the workforce it needs, especialy one that can be allocated at will to where it needs to be most, allowing the UC to keep going. All those slavecamps ensure the cities survival, they arent there for fun.
Now the HNs system of just snatching any non-human by default seems much more inhumane than this, doesnt it? AT least the UC will give you a chance before enslaving you.
And yeah, none of the factions in Kenshi are beacons of Goodwill - but they have to survive under harsh conditions, same as the player, who will find himself stripping enemies and leaving them to die out in the desert constantly or stealing from people in order to survive, which somehow everyone here just accepts as necessary while critizing the factions who do the same on a grander scale.
Kenshi is all about survival, what makes anyone think this does not apply to the factions?

The world of Kenshi is a very harsh place. This post by user K98 is an excellent argument as to why the UC may not be morally correct, but they are practical and necessary. We don't have time for such silly things like morality and ethics when mutants, insane cannibals and corrupted machines are scratching at the door.

I've decided to side with the Anti-Slavers on my latest run, and things are NOT looking good at all. Here's some things I've noticed that made me lose faith in destroying the Empire:

1. Tinfist is suspicious. He's been a close ally of the mad emperor Cat-Lon for the longest time, he's most likely guilty of genocide (I don't trust his pacifist martial artist story) and he doesn't seem to care very much about anything other than destroying the Third Empire. At some point after killing most of the Central UC nobles, he says that there's a problem with hungry bandits, and doesn't seem to have a clue on how to feed the humans. After all, he's just a robot.

2. The rebels are incompetent. Trade stops, shops are destroyed, towns are destroyed, any semblance of civilisation, as corrupt and unfair as it once was, is now gone. Now there's just some thugs living in ruins that nod approvingly as I pass by. Also, cities get taken over by Empire Peasants. They have no central authority, as Boss Simion just sort of disappears, so all I'm left with is a neutral faction that I can't interact with.

What's worse, Brink gets taken over by the Reavers. The whole region becomes extremely dangerous as groups of insane killers and slavers roam around, causing chaos for any travellers that want to get into Black Scratch.

3. Lastly, there's no time to rebuild. Cannibals patrol the area of Sho-Battai. Fogmen also encroach into HN territory if their cities are destroyed. I was counting on the UC and the Shek keeping the peace in the wasteland, but that's not a realistic option on this playthrough.

As I recruit a lot of non-human companions, I always destroy the HN and leave the Shek and UC to maintain a semblance of order. After destroying most of the UC and seeing the devastation and the horrible implications, I think I've given up on this idea entirely.
Anyone else agree?

[Shidan]

1. Personally I don't distrust Tinfist. He's simply naive and incompetent. Most likely the reason he hates slavery is because it reminds him of how Cat-Lon ran things towards the end. Humans locked up and forced into servitude. He wants to stop that from happening again. And in doing so, he fails to see the consequences of his actions until its too late. Dooming his effort to failure, just like Cat-Lon before him.

2 & 3. I tend to agree with you here. An argument can be made for a little chaos and anarchy is necessary to wipe away the corruption and rebuild. But all I see is a massive increase in suffering for the downtrodden of the UC, and a second run of the exact scenario that created the UC and Traders Guild in the first place. The UC and the Traders Guild are a terrible institution, but the answer is not to burn it all down.

The absolute best scenario I see the remains of the UC going is uniting into a relatively weak and fragile state. And then likely being conquered by a more ruthless neighbor shortly afterward (HN if they're still around, or the Shek after Esata dies and the nation reverts to its old ways.). Or if no major powers are left, mass starvation hits the world, and various local rulers end up taking power, not unlike the nobles before them.

In general, I think it's impossible for their ideals to survive the fall of the UC. Way too many economic hardships and/or foreign threats are in their future without the UC and TG. And neither the rebels or the Anti-Slavers have anyone with experience in such things to take charge and lead the new nation through them. Suffering and corruption is inevitable. This is simply a rest point, where history will repeat itself again in a few hundred years.

[N.KagnitO)))]

When the HN is destroyed, the Shek take over the two southern towns, while the Flotsam Ninjas take Blister Hill and Rebirth. This is a very believable scenario and one that I completely agree with.

The Flotsam Ninjas are mostly formed of farmer's wives, and they have the skills and knowledge to rebuild and replant the soil almost immediately. Nobody's going to starve, and as a bonus, they've been living in freaking cannibal territory for who knows how many years. They know how to deal with rabid maniacs scratching at the gate.

The Shek are a strong warrior culture. They value honour, strength, honesty and not stabbing people in the back. Fogmen and cannibals are nothing but chaff to them, and with Esata in control, they don't have any real reason to bully the Flotsam Ninjas. The Empire nobles are also terrified of the Shek, and will likely not try to expand their borders for many years.

Compare all this to the UC takeover scenarios. Like I've said before, everything is in ruins, and all I've got is a neutral faction that I cannot in any way interact with. It's disappointing, and I wish the devs expanded more on the Anti-Slaver side of things. We've got the Reactive World mod, but the author decided that somehow the HN needs more attention, when there's so little on the UC side.

After much contemplation, it seems that it's time for the Anti-Slavers to meet their maker. I had hoped they would actually be worth something, but all they are good for is causing more chaos. I don't like the UC, but this is only stable future I can see for the wasteland.

[Shidan]

The Flotsam Ninjas aren't likely to form a long lasting nation in my opinion. Many of them are still die hard Okranites (minus the sexism, or perhaps reversed sexism), and the land they are taking is inhabited by die hard Okranites who believe the Flotsam Ninjas are the literal servants of Narko and demon worshipers. There is going to be instability for many years to come, and if the Shek fall back to their old ways, they are likely to become embroiled in a new war to top it off.

The Shek are a strong warrior culture who believe in honour, strength, blunt honesty, and might makes right. One which is suffering from a literal civil war because much of the population thinks that Esata is in the wrong, and they should press the attack on the Okranites. Even the loyal citizens mostly think she's in the wrong, and only follow her out of a sense of duty and honour. Given their leadership is designed to be the strongest warrior, how long do you think her rule will last? How long before she becomes too old to defend her position from a new and younger upstart? Given she has a fully grown daughter already, we can easily assume she's probably around 40 or so by now minimum, unless she had a daughter at a very young age.

The likelihood this new leader agrees with her policies is pretty low as well. As someone who agrees with her stance is not apt to attempt to usurp her rule. So a new bloodthirsty Shek warlord sits on the throne, with a weak and unstable Okranite neighbor. The Okranites, who have oppressed, attacked, and dishonoured Shek warriors for generations. How long before they decide their warrior culture needs a fight? How long before they decide to remove the Okranite threat by force?

As for Reactive World, since you're talking to the author right now. The Holy Nation was expanded because it was very lacking. A couple dudes die, and the nation goes in huge swaths to other people. Compared to the UC, where each town has local rulers, half-destroyed states, malnourished variants, in addition to the takeovers. Not to mention how the vast majority of players prefer to fight the Holy Nation over any other faction. It was an easy option to be the first real expansion. I had thoughts for UC related events, but never actually acted on them.

[N.KagnitO)))]

Originally posted by Shidan:

The Flotsam Ninjas aren't likely to form a long lasting nation in my opinion. Many of them are still die hard Okranites (minus the sexism, or perhaps reversed sexism), and the land they are taking is inhabited by die hard Okranites who believe the Flotsam Ninjas are the literal servants of Narko and demon worshipers. There is going to be instability for many years to come, and if the Shek fall back to their old ways, they are likely to become embroiled in a new war to top it off.

The Shek are a strong warrior culture who believe in honour, strength, blunt honesty, and might makes right. One which is suffering from a literal civil war because much of the population thinks that Esata is in the wrong, and they should press the attack on the Okranites. Even the loyal citizens mostly think she's in the wrong, and only follow her out of a sense of duty and honour. Given their leadership is designed to be the strongest warrior, how long do you think her rule will last? How long before she becomes too old to defend her position from a new and younger upstart? Given she has a fully grown daughter already, we can easily assume she's probably around 40 or so by now minimum, unless she had a daughter at a very young age.

The likelihood this new leader agrees with her policies is pretty low as well. As someone who agrees with her stance is not apt to attempt to usurp her rule. So a new bloodthirsty Shek warlord sits on the throne, with a weak and unstable Okranite neighbor. The Okranites, who have oppressed, attacked, and dishonoured Shek warriors for generations. How long before they decide their warrior culture needs a fight? How long before they decide to remove the Okranite threat by force?

As for Reactive World, since you're talking to the author right now. The Holy Nation was expanded because it was very lacking. A couple dudes die, and the nation goes in huge swaths to other people. Compared to the UC, where each town has local rulers, half-destroyed states, malnourished variants, in addition to the takeovers. Not to mention how the vast majority of players prefer to fight the Holy Nation over any other faction. It was an easy option to be the first real expansion. I had thoughts for UC related events, but never actually acted on them.

You're right, one must not forget that each faction has flaws, and there's no real "good guys" in the wasteland. I'm no God of the wasteland myself, I can't control what the factions become in the future. All I can really do is ensure there's less bloodthirsty maniacs around, both on the UC and HN sides.

Oh and I'm sorry that I was so blunt about your mod. Normally I remember good mod authors, but I got carried away. Anyway, good talk, now I've got a good plan laid out for my last playthrough.

[Shidan]

Honestly, this nobody is perfect thing Kenshi has with its factions is one of the things I love the best about its world. It gives a sense of character to them that is sometimes left lacking in other fictional worlds.

And no worries, I appreciate feedback regardless. People shouldn't have to be afraid to say what they like/dislike about the mods. As long as feedback is constructive, I will take it into consideration. I just wanted to make it clear why the Holy Nation had so much done as opposed to the UC. :)

[GIJoe597]

As a third party to this chat cycle, I have/am enjoying the possible outcomes/thoughts on who/what/why. Good reading, and I so much enjoy reading.

[Legion]

I find myself selling more slaves to the UC for that extra manpower in labor. In my head, at least, the more bodies they have, the more they'll better be able to afford help for their fellow man. I'll take semi-siding with slavers as opposed to racists any day; at least this way the slaves won't have to die resisting being sent to be sold off provided I'm not using them for my own production first.

[Shidan]

Honestly, the real issue with the UC is the Traders Guild. They actively seek to promote the conflict and suffering in the world.

They want the peasants in rebellion, as it keeps them off the farms, which mean more reliance on slave farms.

They want the Holy Nation war to continue, as war is profitable. Though they do want them weakened, so they can snag those mines.

They want to start a war with the Shek kingdom, because again, war is profitable. And even go so far as to hire assassins to kill the queen in order to frenzy them, then point them at the Holy Nation to soften both sides up.

They actively sponsor and encourage various criminal groups. Such as the United Heroes League and the Swamper Gangs. Using them as thugs and smugglers.

They are the architects of so much suffering in Kenshi's world. All under the guise of neutral traders, doing business with all three major factions.

[Legion]

That's why I love the TD. The mere fact that they're so good at what they do, and no one even suspects them. Though, I did find myself allying with UHL.

[GIJoe597]

The Traders Guild, the Ferengi of Kenshi.