What is best training equipment for attack+defense?

[Carryonnaire]

For attack alone it would be heavy armor (samurai set?) and sabres with attack penalty.
For defense alone it would be assassin rags and guardless katana.
But is there such combination of armor and weapon which would greatly decrease both attack and defense? Large backpack is good for this, but I would like more. If possible, available in big numbers for batch training.

[bunny de fluff]

Maybe the tin can helmet can help.

[Carryonnaire]

Samurai helmet is only 1 point worse, so it is not big difference. And it is also attack penalty, as all other heavy armor. I want something to give my characters -20 in both attack and defense.

[Fryskar]

For both? Counldn't find a good one.
Head: Tin can -5MA/Armoured hood -2MA/MD.
Chest: Crab -10MA/Armoured rags -5MD.
No leg/footwear.

Weapon: guardless katana -6MD, +6MA /Holed sabre -4MA/+6MD
Consider heavy weapons for inside.

[bunny de fluff]

Fight while overloaded?

[Raymond]

have you finished training their toughness first? It's not worth raising any stat unless your trainee has 80+ toughness.

[Carryonnaire]

Originally posted by Fryskar:

For both? Counldn't find a good one.
Head: Tin can -5MA/Armoured hood -2MA/MD.
Chest: Crab -10MA/Armoured rags -5MD.
No leg/footwear.

Weapon: guardless katana -6MD, +6MA /Holed sabre -4MA/+6MD
Consider heavy weapons for inside.

So the best combination would give -9 attack and -6 defense? With large backpack it is -19 and -16.

Originally posted by bunny de fluff:

Fight while overloaded?

No, it does not affect attack and defense.

Originally posted by YariMurai:

have you finished training their toughness first? It's not worth raising any stat unless your trainee has 80+ toughness.

Not yet. They have 30-50 toughness, but also 30-50 attack and defense just from defending outpost and attacking roaming squads. I did not give them any active training yet.

[Shidan]

Only thing I have to add to the above is Hive Prisoner Shackles, which give a whopping -15 to both attack and defense. Can get them in mass numbers easily by simply getting a hiver or skeleton enslaved, and removing your shackles and handing them to a nearby character for storage, repeat as needed.

They of course have no armour value though, so you are sacrificing that. Unclear how much that matters to you. I'd personally pair them with Samurai Legplates and Blackened Chainmail to somewhat offset the lack of torso armour.

But with that and the backpack, you can get to -25 in both skills. Tin Can will get you to -30 attack, while the armoured hood will get you to -27 in both.

Pair with a rusted junk heavy weapon indoors can net you an extra - 7 to both, for a total of -37 MA/-32MD, or -34 to both, depending on headgear.

Rusted Junk polearm will get you a -9 MD indoors, but of course has only a -3 MA indoors, so may not be ideal for mixed training. Has the lowest damage though, so may be the ideal training weapon in that regard.

Personally, I'd probably roll the Tin Can, with the Rusted Junk Polearm. And of course the shackles, and backpack. For a total of -34 MD and -33 MA.

[Fryskar]

Originally posted by Carryonnaire:

Originally posted by Fryskar:

For both? Counldn't find a good one.
Head: Tin can -5MA/Armoured hood -2MA/MD.
Chest: Crab -10MA/Armoured rags -5MD.
No leg/footwear.

Weapon: guardless katana -6MD, +6MA /Holed sabre -4MA/+6MD
Consider heavy weapons for inside.

So the best combination would give -9 attack and -6 defense? With large backpack it is -19 and -16.

The "best" i could find in a quick check.
Rusted junk aka unknown should be another -1/-1 while also lowering dmg.

[Fryskar]

Originally posted by Shidan:

Only thing I have to add to the above is Hive Prisoner Shackles, which give a whopping -15 to both attack and defense. Can get them in mass numbers easily by simply getting a hiver or skeleton enslaved, and removing your shackles and handing them to a nearby character for storage, repeat as needed.

They of course have no armour value though, so you are sacrificing that. Unclear how much that matters to you. I'd personally pair them with Samurai Legplates and Blackened Chainmail to somewhat offset the lack of torso armour.

But with that and the backpack, you can get to -25 in both skills. Tin Can will get you to -30 attack, while the armoured hood will get you to -27 in both.

Pair with a rusted junk heavy weapon indoors can net you an extra - 7 to both, for a total of -37 MA/-32MD, or -34 to both, depending on headgear.

Rusted Junk polearm will get you a -9 MD indoors, but of course has only a -3 MA indoors, so may not be ideal for mixed training. Has the lowest damage though, so may be the ideal training weapon in that regard.

Personally, I'd probably roll the Tin Can, with the Rusted Junk Polearm. And of course the shackles, and backpack. For a total of -34 MD and -33 MA.

Didn't check the shakles.
But it says must be either hive, skeleton or double amputee.

[Shidan]

Originally posted by Fryskar:

Didn't check the shakles.
But it says must be either hive, skeleton or double amputee.

To get them from the slavers, yes. But anyone can wear them afterward.

[Fryskar]

Originally posted by Shidan:

Originally posted by Fryskar:

Didn't check the shakles.
But it says must be either hive, skeleton or double amputee.

To get them from the slavers, yes. But anyone can wear them afterward.

Well, then the wiki is outdated, if you feel like fixing.
https://kenshi.fandom.com/wiki/Hive_Prisoner_Shackles

E: Or rather, i should learn reading.

[Shidan]

Don't see that as outdated, as it's not specifically saying that other races cannot wear them. But I added a clarification anyway. :)

[Fryskar]

Originally posted by Shidan:

Don't see that as outdated, as it's not specifically saying that other races cannot wear them. But I added a clarification anyway. :)

Was merely me beeing wrong, as i edited in a bit before your post.

[Stryderunknown]

Just a thought but doesn't being injured effect the stats too?

For instance you could train a non-robot/non-hiver character in an acid shower (Burning Forest, Deadlands etc). Training both indoors and out, so you can move the character inside when their health gets too low.

[Fryskar]

Originally posted by Stryderunknown:

Just a thought but doesn't being injured effect the stats too?

For instance you could train a non-robot/non-hiver character in an acid shower (Burning Forest, Deadlands etc). Training both indoors and out, so you can move the character inside when their health gets too low.

You certainly lose strenght.