So how exactly does the bonus combat exp work?

[Duskmare]

Which skills does it compare. Is it straightforward attack vs attack for attack exp and defence vs defence for defence exp? Or maybe attack vs defence and vice versa?
Is it even simpler and just takes defence vs defence (as I've seen someone say).

What about armour? Does an enemy wearing armour with stat penalties give less exp? Does the armour cause them to give more exp?
Do NPCs with better weapons give more exp?

I have a prisoner to fight and I want to know if I should give them armour and weapons that give them bonus stats while giving my guy armour and weapons that reduce his stats. If it only takes defence into account for example, then I could give the enemy a weapon that reduces his attack abilities but increases his defence to prolong my own guy's training. If armour adds more then I should obviously give him some heavy armour that slows him down but allows my guy to whack him more. Though if the debuffs from heavy armour reduce the exp gain I definitely shouldn't do that.
Yet none of this 'would be useful' information is on the wiki or in the discussions (that I could find).
So, does anyone know?

[Shidan]

Exp rate multiplier scales from x0.1 at 25 levels above the opponent's opposing skill, to x6.0 at 60 levels below the opponent's opposing skill.

Opposing skills are based on what weapons are being used. When an attack is performed, the game will challenge the attacker's offensive skill vs the defender's defensive skill.

When wielding a weapon, your offensive skill is Melee Attack, and your defensive skill is Melee Defense.

When unarmed, your offensive skill is Martial Arts, and your defensive skill is Martial Arts. (Note: this is only for the purpose of exp calculation, Dodge is still the skill used for dodging, it just oddly doesn't affect the exp multiplier)

Penalties from equipment do have an effect, as it is challenging the two effective levels against each other, not the base levels. Though that only applies to the bonus exp. You still need the same amount of experience as your base level requires, you'll just earn it faster or slower depending on the bonus.

[Duskmare]

Originally posted by Shidan:

Exp rate multiplier scales from x0.1 at 25 levels above the opponent's opposing skill, to x6.0 at 60 levels below the opponent's opposing skill.

Opposing skills are based on what weapons are being used. When an attack is performed, the game will challenge the attacker's offensive skill vs the defender's defensive skill.

When wielding a weapon, your offensive skill is Melee Attack, and your defensive skill is Melee Defense.

When unarmed, your offensive skill is Martial Arts, and your defensive skill is Martial Arts. (Note: this is only for the purpose of exp calculation, Dodge is still the skill used for dodging, it just oddly doesn't affect the exp multiplier)

Penalties from equipment do have an effect, as it is challenging the two effective levels against each other, not the base levels. Though that only applies to the bonus exp. You still need the same amount of experience as your base level requires, you'll just earn it faster or slower depending on the bonus.

Ok, thanks. I think I understand.

So if I want to train my guy's attack then I give the enemy boosts to his defence and give my guy negatives to his attack, right?
Similarly, if I want to train defence then I give the enemy increased attack and decrease my guy's defence.

Does that also mean that aside from straight additions (like +5 defence on drifter jackets, for example) armour doesn't matter? So if I want to train attack I should put a bunch of heavy armour on my enemy, that doesn't affect his defence skill, to slow him down so my guy gets more attacks, while also allowing him to take more hits?

[bunny de fluff]

You have to increase attack of enemy and decrease melee defense of your training guy for weapons.

For MA, increase attack of enemy and decrease the MA skill of your training guy (samurai armor set gives a lot of MA penalties)

[bunny de fluff]

The most important thing on your guy is melee defense, not attack. The lower the better. That means new recruit with 0 or 1 is the fastest to train.

[Shidan]

Originally posted by Duskmare:

So if I want to train my guy's attack then I give the enemy boosts to his defence and give my guy negatives to his attack, right?
Similarly, if I want to train defence then I give the enemy increased attack and decrease my guy's defence.

Correct. If you're looking for the maximum bonus.

Originally posted by Duskmare:

Does that also mean that aside from straight additions (like +5 defence on drifter jackets, for example) armour doesn't matter? So if I want to train attack I should put a bunch of heavy armour on my enemy, that doesn't affect his defence skill, to slow him down so my guy gets more attacks, while also allowing him to take more hits?

Correct. Besides the modifiers to those combat stats, armour has no direct effect. So as high resistance as possible is ideal, since it means more hits per fight.

Your opponent having a lower attack stats is also good, since that determines attack frequency. If he doesn't attack as much, that means you get to attack more often.

[bunny de fluff]

Originally posted by Shidan:

Originally posted by Duskmare:

So if I want to train my guy's attack then I give the enemy boosts to his defence and give my guy negatives to his attack, right?
Similarly, if I want to train defence then I give the enemy increased attack and decrease my guy's defence.

Correct. If you're looking for the maximum bonus.

No, you don't have to do a thing to increase your guy's defense before his attack reaches a high enough value. Practically you will never do anything to increase your guys defense, ever. This is because the lower your guy's defense, the faster his attack will increase.

[Duskmare]

Originally posted by Shidan:

Originally posted by Duskmare:

So if I want to train my guy's attack then I give the enemy boosts to his defence and give my guy negatives to his attack, right?
Similarly, if I want to train defence then I give the enemy increased attack and decrease my guy's defence.

Correct. If you're looking for the maximum bonus.

Originally posted by Duskmare:

Does that also mean that aside from straight additions (like +5 defence on drifter jackets, for example) armour doesn't matter? So if I want to train attack I should put a bunch of heavy armour on my enemy, that doesn't affect his defence skill, to slow him down so my guy gets more attacks, while also allowing him to take more hits?

Correct. Besides the modifiers to those combat stats, armour has no direct effect. So as high resistance as possible is ideal, since it means more hits per fight.

Your opponent having a lower attack stats is also good, since that determines attack frequency. If he doesn't attack as much, that means you get to attack more often.

Well I've got a pet inquisitor with about 80 in both right now. Got my own guy with -25 attack and -13 defence. Got the inquisitor using a Jitte too and since my little arena is indoors he's got +12 attack and +4 defence. Throw in a longcoat and he's got another +5 defence. Then I threw on some samurai boots and legs as well as chainmail, all shoddy or prototype for the heaviest debuffs since his toughness gives him enough damage resistance and I'm using grade 18-19 weapons.
So that should be pretty much optimal for training both at once. Along with a good amount of toughness since my guy is taking a lot of hits and the jitte knocks out pretty often without risking much more than that.

[bunny de fluff]

Make him carry a large bagpack, it decreases a lot of combat skills including MA iirc.

[Shidan]

Originally posted by bunny de fluff:

Originally posted by Shidan:

Correct. If you're looking for the maximum bonus.

No, you don't have to do a thing to increase your guy's defense before his attack reaches a high enough value. Practically you will never do anything to increase your guys defense, ever. This is because the lower your guy's defense, the faster his attack will increase.

Not following the logic here. Why would a lower defense increase his attack gain?

[Shenji]

Learn something new everyday.

[bunny de fluff]

Originally posted by Shidan:

Originally posted by bunny de fluff:

No, you don't have to do a thing to increase your guy's defense before his attack reaches a high enough value. Practically you will never do anything to increase your guys defense, ever. This is because the lower your guy's defense, the faster his attack will increase.

Not following the logic here. Why would a lower defense increase his attack gain?

o when 2 opponents are fighting with weapons, it is actually Melee Defence versus Melee Defence when calculating XP.

A nice guide here:
https://www.yekbot.com/kenshi-combat-leveling-guide/

[Shidan]

I'll have to run some tests, as that is not in line with the the results I found a long time back.

I had characters with only levels in one skill attack others with only levels in one skill, then opened the save data after one hit to track exp gains in the various scenarios. They very clearly showed the pattern I mentioned, of offensive skill vs defensive skill.

Well at least I have a new project to do now. Should be fun. :)

[bunny de fluff]

Originally posted by Shidan:

I'll have to run some tests, as that is not in line with the the results I found a long time back.

I had characters with only levels in one skill attack others with only levels in one skill, then opened the save data after one hit to track exp gains in the various scenarios. They very clearly showed the pattern I mentioned, of offensive skill vs defensive skill.

Well at least I have a new project to do now. Should be fun. :)

Oh I am so ready to correct my mistake if you find something out with your experiment !

[Shidan]

So far testing implies I was correct. Two characters, both level 1 attack, one with 100 defense and the other with 1. Both of them attack a 100 defense character once (blocked in both cases), attack exp gain is identical on both characters.

Following the logic in that guide, the character with 100 defense should have earned significantly less exp. And yet they did not. While if those same characters attack someone with only 1 defense, they both earn significantly reduced exp, still identical.

On a different note though, I may be wrong about the modifiers to these stats affecting exp rate here. In the past I've seen evidence of it (specifically I significantly sped up Dodge training by over-encumbering myself), but while running these tests I ended up with a level 1 character attacking another level 1 character with blocks mode on and then without. Both of those cases resulted in identical exp gain, despite a 20 effective level difference between the target. So it may truly be the modifiers do not affect the exp rate, at least not anymore. Will test it further.

[Shidan]

Okay, equipment penalties do apply as expected. (Level 1 character striking a level 100 with -95 penalty gives the same exp as striking a level 5).

Interesting that blocks mode is ignored though. Makes me wonder if other sources of penalties apply though, such as weather or injuries. Will have to test further tomorrow.