A small study of crossbows

[Erei]

So, since nobody seems to have done it, I compiled the stats for the crossbow ingame. I'm using Damage Per Second value, which I calculated. For the values, I used [Prototype] stats. Since it seems to be a multiplier (in the FCS), the DPS increase from quality should be linear, as such, if a crossbow is better than another, it will stay that way no matter the quality, as long as they have the same quality. However, the DPS stats will change.

TL.DR : the values are to be used in a relative way to each other, not as an absolute (one will hopefully not vary with quality, the other will).

Also, consider a small spoiler warning if you don't want to know about crossbow.


From best DPS to lowest :
-Eagle's Cross : 5-14 average : 12
-Oldworld MKII : 4.375-11.25 avg:7.8
-Ranger : 4.4-10 avg:7.2
-Oldworld MKI : 4-10 avg:7
-Spring bat : 5-8.8 avg:6.9
-Tooth pick : 3.3-10 avg:6.65
-Junkbow : 2.5-6.6 avg:4.55

The range value would rate the same (IE eagle's cross the highest, junkbow the lowest), except for ranger and oldworld MKI which are inverted in this case.


Conclusion : I'm a bit disappointed myself, since we clearly have a "best" crossbow. There is no real choices. You don't have to sacrifice range for damage or anything, since the as DPS increase, so does range. Eagle's Cross have the best DPS, the best damage per shot, the best range. Clearly, why pick something else ?
I wish the most damaging one where closer range, and the long range having high damage per shot, but low DPS (sniper rifle if you will). Or perhaps the ability to change ammo type for different result (example : having a short range ammo on a long range crossbow).
Right now, I don't see the point in having all those weapon, when you have a "best" one. Especially since blueprint are gathered at the same place, they are not even harder to find or anything. Same goes for the weapons, if you don't want to craft them.

Also, there is a "required skill", but I don't see how it's used.

On a side note, Eagle's cross have a massive 1500m range. I mean, I don't know what that's representing ingame, but man, that seems crazy. Like sniping way before you're seen.

[Shidan]

The range bit is a bug, it's not doing the Kenshi units to meters conversion first. So it's showing how many Kenshi units its range is, while claiming it's meters. 1 Kenshi unit = 1/10 meters.

Required skill is likely what skill level is required for perfect accuracy. That's how turrets work anyway, and these are built on a very similar system.

[rat bastard]

The stats is one thing, but the feel of each crossbow is different, after killing some bandits with help of the guards and looting them i adquired a junkbow, this made it so easy to kill small groups of bandits alone while , eventually after grinding a bit i got my hands on a High grade ranger (the junkbow was standard btw) this ranger feels a lot slower than my junkbow, i still use it because of the damage, but after getting used to the quick shot at close distances of the junkbow that made it so easy to kite enemies and bleed them out, it's been pretty hard to get used to the ranger since it's really slow compared to the junkbow.

[Erei]

Remember that armor decrease crossbow damage by a flat value. Essentially, the higher the armor, the less damage you do, eventually reaching 0. So your fast firing junkbow might be efficient for low level bandit, but against anyone with an armor you'll do no damage.

[Zalzany]

To be fair shouldn't one master them all? I mean that is how the rest of the world works, there is always one weapon that trumps the rest in that class more or less. I mean that is how it should be, just make them rate in value boom its balanced make the weakest cheapest best expensive balanced. I mean Tactics is a diffrent story any one who played a pvp with bows like Life is Feudal or War Of the Roses etc will know you can take the light easy to fire thing and if you do hit and runs on targets who can't just absorb it you can kite forever. But in the end when not doing that you want that premo one.

Like in LiF naked archer was so damn OP early on no armor, just a cheap bow, and enough arrows to kill a few people then you run around and shoot a melee user. Then last tiem I played if you were devoted to Longbow it meant killing your stats for anything else you could one shot people with a bit of skill. You just rode out on a horse with some others, and took up the rear, and just one-two shotted guys and hoped your friends kept them off you becuase in melee you sucked.

That is how it should work here solo yeah faster, and kiting is better but long haul you don't want to micromange 6 short range people at once not unless you love pausing every one second, no you want a guy who is skilled with the eagle one popping people while his buddies fight with enough skill freindly fire is low. that shoudl be the goal, unless you want a one man army run.

Me I always favore the big slow and tue and use tactics like supporting teammates. Like in War of Roses I had the big nasty seige bow with crank to pull it back took ages to reload but I could one shot guys in armor with that beast if I hit right spot on their body. Trade off was the guys with nice bows would counter snipe I guess you would call it, I was fitted for peircing plate so I coudl kill them just did better shooting at helmets then leather wearing guys were using barbed arrows to and hoping to hit my soft meat, so even when I hid to reload that beast I would bleed out, as I had to do chain to not be so damn heavy I couldn't move at all lol. Oh I miss that game...

[lalala]

I want to build my minuteman wall of crossbows

[Erei]

You don't understand what I mean. I want more variety from them, instead of just "that one is better in everything", which is what we have. It makes most of them pointless for the majority of players, who will look at which is the best and use it. Only a handful of RPer or ignoring people will pick the others.

There is not even a balance in skill usage. The best one have less requirement than the worst one. For some reason.

I don't see the point in using anything but the eagle's cross. I was expecting variety, instead I had progression, but with weapons I can all use, craft or buy at the same time.

I wished we had variety, like in FPS games, between the slow sniper rifle, the fast machine gun or the close range shotgun. Not the same, but you get the idea, different ones. Right now, with how armor work, the fastest one will do no damage on anything with an armor.


Also note that I used DPS values. Crossbow have a free initial shot where reload time is irrelevant, giving a bonus to the best one, which have a slightly less reload time.

[Zalzany]

Originally posted by Erei:

You don't understand what I mean. I want more variety from them, instead of just "that one is better in everything", which is what we have. It makes most of them pointless for the majority of players, who will look at which is the best and use it. Only a handful of RPer or ignoring people will pick the others.

There is not even a balance in skill usage. The best one have less requirement than the worst one. For some reason.

I don't see the point in using anything but the eagle's cross. I was expecting variety, instead I had progression, but with weapons I can all use, craft or buy at the same time.

I wished we had variety, like in FPS games, between the slow sniper rifle, the fast machine gun or the close range shotgun. Not the same, but you get the idea, different ones. Right now, with how armor work, the fastest one will do no damage on anything with an armor.

But in reality you can't hand pick any of them you only can becuase you are basicly save scumming extreme. You are importing your save to a new world to do it, a new person aint' gonna be able to instantly get all of them hell once this goes stable I doube even a old stable will. they will have to go get all the BPs for it, eagle cross should jsut be harder to get then its balanced. If you got easy mode access yeah it seems unfair.

And even in FPS in the end there is one sniper that beats all others, I just explained that with my little nostalgia rant. Every game I play there is a meta that trumps all others, such as that xbow with crank set up for AP usage to pen full plate users, that thing is god like to guys in plate, not so much to the rest, but counter was like said a faster lower damage weapon. And some oen already confirmed your data is all busted as hell, as the cheapest lowest dps one here early one can be the most OP one around. As you can fire faster and just kite using its short range, just takes more shots per kill. its the same thing in FPS the guys using the high damage guns can out kill most, but some one with right set up with a weaker one even lower dps can do better then them if they play diffrent.

So what you did is cofirm in FPS its all about how you use a weapon with diffrent stats, then you quoted basic numbers with no real testing and said x is always better, even though some one already said he kills better with the weaker one then better one here.

I don't see your point the eagle has longer reloads, so in reality in this game you get less shots before you get meleed and its harder to kite big time. So the weaker faster shooting ones area actually better for real combat, while the Eagle would be best for vets with high skills who sit back and snipe, or for siting on a wall where you should already have harpoons that do better by time you get that eagle.

I mean where is your logic here? Its all based on some bare bones dps, no actual usage, and based on idea you will keep instant easy access to all xbows once its stable. I mean easist balance there ever was would be make the BPs harder to get. You are testing right now so sure you should have easy access but come on you can't think it will be that easy to get the best hiting one once stbale goes live unless you import that save with it already researched right?

And I never played an FPS that the high level unlocked gun and modules for it are worse then the starter one, ever. Some could do better but on paper their will always be one with the best dps, or one shot capicity. The normal balance for bows and xbows is longer draw/releoad time for said weapon the harder it hits this can mean higher dps sure, but doesn't meant you are the best one ever. Like my other refernces you can use the super duper one shots, and get shot 3 times becuase you missed and died by a medium grade counter weapon. Or you could just get one shot by another player doing a similar set up. Only in freaking COD with no scoping and headshots galore is it really that super drastically diffrent. Otherwise over all its simple based on who hits who first with one shot weapon or who targets who first while they do a long reload, and get attacked by some one who was not their focus.

I mean in FPS minsu ones with bows and xbows its normally the one shot kill set ups that are the meta. like in BF4 when I go sniper its never 2-3 shots to kill me its always me picking off an infantry men while another sniper sees me and shoots me in the freaking head. Otherwise they miss or graze me, I move instantly and it becomes a game of hide and seek still with goal of one shoting if at all possible the other sniper. there is no super tactics like use a semi auto and pop off 8 rounds no, because they will flee if they can and hide and creep back out to fire at you. If you got time to do 8 shots you can fire 2 one kill shots from the slower guns.

[Zalzany]

Plus at no point should a player go "finally 12 hours in working my butt off I got that Eagle BP, wtf the one I got at hour 4 is like 2 times better then this, why did I just lose a guys limb to recover this BP and its worse then one I stole from a safe in town!"

[Erei]

Originally posted by Zalzany:

But in reality you can't hand pick any of them you only can becuase you are basicly save scumming extreme. You are importing your save to a new world to do it, a new person aint' gonna be able to instantly get all of them hell once this goes stable I doube even a old stable will. they will have to go get all the BPs for it, eagle cross should jsut be harder to get then its balanced. If you got easy mode access yeah it seems unfair.

What ? You are assuming a lot. This is ridiculous.
I'm not save scumming. BP and crossbows are sold by specific vendor, and they all have the BP and crossbows. Sometimes the BP will not show, just wait 1day or 2. That's what I did. At the same vendor, no need to leave the city. In 3 day, not leaving the city, I had all the BP. I could have bought the crossbow on day 1 if I wanted to.

As for FPS, no, sniper rifle are not dominating everything. That's why you don't see sniper rifle only in esport, or on maps. Actually, in BF3, when I played, the most popular weapons where assault rifle, for competitive.

You played BF, so you know the starter gun for most class, at least in BF3, where some of the best. That's mostly because BF is buitl around the gun being balanced, which mean they can all be used. Sure, you have a few s**t weapon, but that's bound to happen. Overall, they are all useful, in a specific way.
The same is true with planetside 2, for example.

Originally posted by Zalzany:

I mean where is your logic here? Its all based on some bare bones dps, no actual usage, and based on idea you will keep instant easy access to all xbows once its stable. I mean easist balance there ever was would be make the BPs harder to get. You are testing right now so sure you should have easy access but come on you can't think it will be that easy to get the best hiting one once stbale goes live unless you import that save with it already researched right?

Enjoy doing literaly 0 damage with your toothpick on anything that's not a starving bandit. On the other hand, you could use the eagle cross for 1s longer reload (oh my, that's harsh) and 3times the damage. Not to mention said reload decrease with skill and quality, while the toothpick for example is bound to never reach 0 reload, as such, the gap being smaller and smaller as quality and skill increase.

[Al Capwn]

I personally think you underestimate the Tooth Pick in certain respects. Tough it's DPS and range may be unimpressive its high rate of fire makes it pretty neat against enemies susceptible to staggering.

[Erei]

Ennemies that can be staggered by the toothpick are very low level targets (starving bandits, cannibals). At the point of the game where you need everything to win against those, you pretty much equip anything at hand.
I was mostly considering the mid-late game rather than very early.

[starkmaddness]

DPS, while helpful, does not account for all factors. For example, faster low-damage weapons are less affected by over-damage. Meaning any damage over what it takes to kill/destroy-limb is essentially wasted. Slow, heavy hitting weapons are more affected by this.

Is it enough to make them viable here, I can't yet say.

[Erei]

Sadly, low damage weapons are drastically negated by armor. To the point it's negligible. Also, the reduction in reload is non linear, so essentially, you can reduce the higher reload time to the point where it's really close to the fast one, since they have a much higher reduction initially.

I've tried the toothpick, the eagle's cross and the oldworld II, the toothpick damage is incredibly low, even on a starving bandit (my target), in the 10-20range, while the reload was barely faster (1s) over the eagle's cross. The eagle was doing up to 100dmg on a gutter. The oldworld was average, I guess.

[Muscarine]

I think Erei has a point when he says many players just beeline for "the best" and it hurts many games' diversity.

On the other hand i find that diversity often comes in contradiction with balance, so the more options you want to give, the more you create an optimal vs sub-optimal meta game.
The only answer to this is to give all weapons the same stats but with different skins, and no need to explain why it'd be completely bland and boring in Kenshi.

Maybe it'd be worth it to have a slightly less obvious gap between the Eagle's Cross and the other xbows, but at the end of the day i personally prefer more options over balance, especially in a single player game.

[Al Capwn]

Originally posted by Erei:

Sadly, low damage weapons are drastically negated by armor. To the point it's negligible. Also, the reduction in reload is non linear, so essentially, you can reduce the higher reload time to the point where it's really close to the fast one, since they have a much higher reduction initially.

I've tried the toothpick, the eagle's cross and the oldworld II, the toothpick damage is incredibly low, even on a starving bandit (my target), in the 10-20range, while the reload was barely faster (1s) over the eagle's cross. The eagle was doing up to 100dmg on a gutter. The oldworld was average, I guess.

At least for me even fully armored samurai dudes get staggered even if the hit does 0 damage. Though my terminology may be kinda confused in regards to stagger/stumble/etc. I'm referring to the 'stumbles backwards slightly' animation that accompanies pretty much every hit taken.