Bugmaster

[The Lone Wanderer]

I'm confused about turn-in. I seem to remember at some point being able to turn him into the HN or the Shek and I'd only ever go after him if I doing a meitou run. Whichever you choose you get positive rep and negative rep for the opposing faction. I hadn't bothered with spideyboi in ages so I went and took him out just now and it says UC and Shek, so no more HN turn in? Has the HN-Shek mechanic for rep turned to Shek v UC?

If so, where in the UC do you turn him in?

(I HATE the shek, like really really cannot stand them. I wipe them out in every playthrough so I'm not gunna turn him in there, what are the available options that aren't shek?)

[The Lone Wanderer]

talked to everyone in B.Hill including the phoenix himself, dumped him in all the cages and nada. Even though people such as sentinels, pali's and citizens would run around saying kudos on catching the bugmaster and what not. I think it's been changed to a shek only hand in, except the legacy code wasn't touched, like at all other than the option to turn it in elsewhere was turned off.

I've noticed a lot of that kind of thing, as much as I enjoy the game, there's a lot of smaller details that's seemingly have been left to modders to clean up the mess. I'm going to just mod in the option to turn him into the HN and receive 100 rep and a free house in Bhill or something.

I've been trying to figure out how to make a real-estate mod where you can buy and sell property in Kenshi, which also leaves an architect/construction playthrough option. but that's seeming much harder and more detailed than I expected. Creating a town take over mod seems much less complicated than the ability to sell a house. I could create an NPC that's a Real-Estate agent that you can speak to and sell your property too then he resets the world state on a city, only not sure how to do that without resetting everything in it, for example nobles and such you may have killed.

[Omaeka]

Bugmaster has never had a HN bounty, he's a Shek legend and one of their greatest enemies, as he put his nest in their territory a couple hundred years ago. By defeating him and handing him into the Shek, the HN just see you as the Shek's champion now, they don't actually want to actively imprison the Bugboi because he causes so much damage to the Shek. I'm pretty sure that the Bugmaster is one of the bigger reasons for the Shek Kingdom being so small, so with him gone theoretically they can start to attack Holy Nation (although they won't in the actual game mechanics). HN are fighting a war with the UC, so just another reason why the HN will hate you for solving the Bugmaster problem as they aren't in any position to actively fight 2 enemies.

As for the United Cities, they will take just about any bounty in the game, to enslave them or hold them in Tengu's Vault for 'other' reasons, but they have no actual desire for the Bugmaster specifically outside of their generic 'will take any bounty' attitude, and the UC have no ill will towards the Shek, so they don't care if you give them the Bugmaster. Infact, because of the HN's war with the UC, the UC might actually want the Bugmaster gone in order to strengthen the Shek, who are also at war with the HN. Enemy of my enemy etc.

So in short, it makes absolutely no sense for the HN to want to incentivise bounty hunters to kill/capture the Bugmaster, if anything they would hate whoever defeats him, which they do.

[The Lone Wanderer]

Originally posted by Omaeka:

Bugmaster has never had a HN bounty, he's a Shek legend and one of their greatest enemies, as he put his nest in their territory a couple hundred years ago. By defeating him and handing him into the Shek, the HN just see you as the Shek's champion now, they don't actually want to actively imprison the Bugboi because he causes so much damage to the Shek. I'm pretty sure that the Bugmaster is one of the bigger reasons for the Shek Kingdom being so small, so with him gone theoretically they can start to attack Holy Nation (although they won't in the actual game mechanics). HN are fighting a war with the UC, so just another reason why the HN will hate you for solving the Bugmaster problem as they aren't in any position to actively fight 2 enemies.

As for the United Cities, they will take just about any bounty in the game, to enslave them or hold them in Tengu's Vault for 'other' reasons, but they have no actual desire for the Bugmaster specifically outside of their generic 'will take any bounty' attitude, and the UC have no ill will towards the Shek, so they don't care if you give them the Bugmaster. Infact, because of the HN's war with the UC, the UC might actually want the Bugmaster gone in order to strengthen the Shek, who are also at war with the HN. Enemy of my enemy etc.

So in short, it makes absolutely no sense for the HN to want to incentivise bounty hunters to kill/capture the Bugmaster, if anything they would hate whoever defeats him, which they do.

I disagree about the HN.

Narko Spawn is Narko Spawn and he's a traitorous abomination wielding, essentially sorcery in the HN's eyes to control spiders, the enemy of my enemy is my friend rule doesn't apply to kenshi always. It makes perfect sense that HN would hate and want him.

Also He's considered a sacrament in Shek eyes, it's where they go to die, to have their glorious final battle. Removing that from a lot of the populace pisses them off, even if the aristocracy of the Shek approves. You gather this by their reactions when you walk around with buggy on your shoulders, lots of mixed and varied reactions. Some get genuinely angry that you "stole" their glorious death or bounty.

Thus, in HN eyes, would prop him up to diety status of the Shek in HN eyes.

Not only that if you carry bugboi around in HN cities the populace marvels, could be oversite, or an issue with bounties turn in sharing the same dialogue options between different factions on different bounties.

It used to be these larger bounties had different options for turning in, but from looking around in the FCS out of date wiki pages and a few other things, it looks like now it's changed to each faction has their own "boss bounty" and you pick which boss bounty you want to chase for relations, UC option is just there for a cash-in without effecting Rep. I could be wrong, but that's what I've gathered so far.

[The Lone Wanderer]

I usually don't even bother with bounties and just chuck the boss lads into the peeler machine to end them. (there's one that you can use freely at a place called "unknown camp" if you don't want to deal with savant)

[Shidan]

The HN indeed has never had a bounty on the Bugmaster, so I'm not sure where you're remembering that from. But ever since he was first added it was always just Shek and UC bounty in vanilla.

Honestly, with the way the facts around are, I personally suspect he is an Okranite himself, even if the HN don't know that anymore.

1. He is enemies with the two factions that are at war with the HN, and does not have a bounty form the HN itself. That comes off as pretty strange.

2. His "treasure" item is located in only one other location in the game world, and that is Holy Nation temples, denoting a possible religious meaning to them.

3. His archenemy is the figure that is very likely to be an ancient enemy of the HN, the one depicted in volume 2 of the Scriptures of Radiance.

Certainly not hard evidence, but enough odd connections to give it some thought.

[The Lone Wanderer]

I dunno, I haven't slept in 48 hours and am really tired, I could just be mixing different things into one memory due to fuzziness. I'm starting to suspect maybe I had a mod that I've since removed for bug's turn in to the HN. There's a dead mod in my list called bounty hunter which might be attached I haven't checked it yet.

Like I said before, I usually don't bother with bounties much unless i'm doing a narrative play for filler.

As for Buggy being former HN:

Here's the thought's I had on it>

He's the "High Priest" but he's gone mad so the HN is trying to keep it hushed up.

He's a zealot who took it too far, abandoned most of the precepts of the Holy Flame after being consumed by hatred for Cat-Lon.

He's hinted at being genetically mutated with his ability to control spiders, but also that's he's exceptionally old (at least by Kenshi world standards) How old? I dunno, could be hundred's of years. What if he's actually Okran or a former Phoenix and over time he's Had dementia or something and turned into that? maybe after humans failed him and the failings of human morality couldn't be defeated he chose to switch to becoming spiderman.

Then there's his treasure trove

Human teeth, (not Shek teeth or Horns) are kept, while the HN has some of this too, it seems a bit unusual that's all he's kept and who did they belong to? it would have to be a significant or meaningful people's you'd think if that's the only thing he kept

and not a single copy of the Holy Flame to be found, so if anything, it would be a corruption or perversion of HN faith no?

Just being a Greenlander Male that hate's Cat-Lon doesn't necessarily qualify you as an HN ally, potential maybe, but he's also mad, attacks everyone on site and.. controls skin spiders.
(Not a single thing labelled "spider" in this game has 8 legs and it bothers me for reasons that I can't figure out)

EDIT: It's against HN law not to have a copy of the Holy Flame, I suspect he's a prayer day dodger, the most unholy of crimes!

[Shidan]

According to the Shek, they've been trying to kill him for centuries at least. So he would be very old, assuming it has been the same person the whole time.

The HN scriptures also refer to the first Phoenix having something called the "Everlasting Flame", a possible interpretation of that could be his extremely long life span/immortality being referred to as that by a religious community. We've not seen anything physically in-game shown as the Everlasting Flame after all.

There was also originally going to be another "immortal" character in the game, but was cut and replaced by another NPC. He appeared to have been intended as the former king of the Second Empire, which conveniently was replaced by Cat-Lon, the person the Bugmaster hates. This makes me suspicious that it was always the plan to have the two immortals be rivals, which implies they may truly be immortal as far as aging is concerned, or at the very least have a very long life span.

As for the missing Holy Flame, it's unclear when it was written. It would not be impossible he simply predates it, and when he left there were no such laws. The religion has supposedly evolved drastically since the HN was founded, the Flame may be part of that evolution.

[The Lone Wanderer]

Ya know, the more I think about it, the more the idea that Buggy is Okran kinda makes sense.

On the other hand he's wanted for genocide amongst other things, the original phoenix was a good man with noble intentions, then there's the reincarnation, for reincarnation to become a thing, someone notable HAD to have died, otherwise there wouldn't be a point to it, save for a REALLY massive and convoluted cover up that's lasted centuries. Although, I suppose not entirely impossible if highly unlikely.

Then the phrase "You die a hero or live long enough to become the villain" comes to mind. Which would fit that rather perfectly if he is actually Okran. He goes mad and becomes the villain, so they "kill" him in spirit, then "reincarante" him as someone else, while the real Okran gets exiled into bug turf and decides Screw all the bi-pedals, I'm going qudraped from henceforth.

[The Lone Wanderer]

Okran the beacon of light and hope in the world turning out to be little more than a deranged genetically altered madman would also be a rather fitting let down to all the people of kenshi, Kenshi is cruel and full of Grey. It's like The Sims: Game of Thrones technological edition.

[Omaeka]

Originally posted by Monk:

Originally posted by Omaeka:

Bugmaster has never had a HN bounty, he's a Shek legend and one of their greatest enemies, as he put his nest in their territory a couple hundred years ago. By defeating him and handing him into the Shek, the HN just see you as the Shek's champion now, they don't actually want to actively imprison the Bugboi because he causes so much damage to the Shek. I'm pretty sure that the Bugmaster is one of the bigger reasons for the Shek Kingdom being so small, so with him gone theoretically they can start to attack Holy Nation (although they won't in the actual game mechanics). HN are fighting a war with the UC, so just another reason why the HN will hate you for solving the Bugmaster problem as they aren't in any position to actively fight 2 enemies.

As for the United Cities, they will take just about any bounty in the game, to enslave them or hold them in Tengu's Vault for 'other' reasons, but they have no actual desire for the Bugmaster specifically outside of their generic 'will take any bounty' attitude, and the UC have no ill will towards the Shek, so they don't care if you give them the Bugmaster. Infact, because of the HN's war with the UC, the UC might actually want the Bugmaster gone in order to strengthen the Shek, who are also at war with the HN. Enemy of my enemy etc.

So in short, it makes absolutely no sense for the HN to want to incentivise bounty hunters to kill/capture the Bugmaster, if anything they would hate whoever defeats him, which they do.

I disagree about the HN.

Narko Spawn is Narko Spawn and he's a traitorous abomination wielding, essentially sorcery in the HN's eyes to control spiders, the enemy of my enemy is my friend rule doesn't apply to kenshi always. It makes perfect sense that HN would hate and want him.

Also He's considered a sacrament in Shek eyes, it's where they go to die, to have their glorious final battle. Removing that from a lot of the populace pisses them off, even if the aristocracy of the Shek approves. You gather this by their reactions when you walk around with buggy on your shoulders, lots of mixed and varied reactions. Some get genuinely angry that you "stole" their glorious death or bounty.

Thus, in HN eyes, would prop him up to diety status of the Shek in HN eyes.

Not only that if you carry bugboi around in HN cities the populace marvels, could be oversite, or an issue with bounties turn in sharing the same dialogue options between different factions on different bounties.

It used to be these larger bounties had different options for turning in, but from looking around in the FCS out of date wiki pages and a few other things, it looks like now it's changed to each faction has their own "boss bounty" and you pick which boss bounty you want to chase for relations, UC option is just there for a cash-in without effecting Rep. I could be wrong, but that's what I've gathered so far.

True, the HN might not like Spiderman but he is probably 50% of the reason the Shek can't attack the HN (Zerkers and Kral's Chosen being the other) so even with their zealotry they'd at least deter from targeting him when they already have the Shek moments from their doorstep while they are finally breaking into UC territory. The HN have war masters after all who would advise to keep him alive (I like to think Valtena and his crew are the brains behind the HN's military might).

Mechanically speaking the UC are definitely there as a 'neutral' option for claiming the bounty but you could see the thematic reasons for it too, a lot of bounty hunters might feel uncomfortable in Shek lands so it's smart to open other avenues for people to want to kill Spidey, so the Shek can potentially force the HN to retreat from the north east, after all the UC is losing the war against the HN quite badly.

[The Lone Wanderer]

Originally posted by Omaeka:

Originally posted by Monk:

I disagree about the HN.

Narko Spawn is Narko Spawn and he's a traitorous abomination wielding, essentially sorcery in the HN's eyes to control spiders, the enemy of my enemy is my friend rule doesn't apply to kenshi always. It makes perfect sense that HN would hate and want him.

Also He's considered a sacrament in Shek eyes, it's where they go to die, to have their glorious final battle. Removing that from a lot of the populace pisses them off, even if the aristocracy of the Shek approves. You gather this by their reactions when you walk around with buggy on your shoulders, lots of mixed and varied reactions. Some get genuinely angry that you "stole" their glorious death or bounty.

Thus, in HN eyes, would prop him up to diety status of the Shek in HN eyes.

Not only that if you carry bugboi around in HN cities the populace marvels, could be oversite, or an issue with bounties turn in sharing the same dialogue options between different factions on different bounties.

It used to be these larger bounties had different options for turning in, but from looking around in the FCS out of date wiki pages and a few other things, it looks like now it's changed to each faction has their own "boss bounty" and you pick which boss bounty you want to chase for relations, UC option is just there for a cash-in without effecting Rep. I could be wrong, but that's what I've gathered so far.

True, the HN might not like Spiderman but he is probably 50% of the reason the Shek can't attack the HN (Zerkers and Kral's Chosen being the other) so even with their zealotry they'd at least deter from targeting him when they already have the Shek moments from their doorstep while they are finally breaking into UC territory. The HN have war masters after all who would advise to keep him alive (I like to think Valtena and his crew are the brains behind the HN's military might).

Mechanically speaking the UC are definitely there as a 'neutral' option for claiming the bounty but you could see the thematic reasons for it too, a lot of bounty hunters might feel uncomfortable in Shek lands so it's smart to open other avenues for people to want to kill him, so the Shek can potentially force the HN to retreat from the north east, after all the UC is losing the war against the HN quite badly.

Yeah I suppose that's a good point, narratively speaking too, the UC bringing spiderman to the Shek could really help their relations and thus spurring an alliance against the HN.

Good reasoning for why they'd want him. But given that's not a guarantee abot relations, it also m akes sense it's just a bounty fee and not a reputation gain bounty.

[Locklave]

The UC has reasons to hate him too, there are destroyed UC cities around that area.

[The Lone Wanderer]

I was just wondering, has anyone grabbed all the various bosses/nobles/diplomatic status holders etc... As in everyone from the phoenix to tinfist to the head of agriculture to moll to cat-lon and put them all together in a giant arena to look at dialogues and interactions?

It seems like a lot of work (without modding it) and I'm tempted to give it a go to see what happens, who interacts with who and what not. releasing each of the chracters 1 v 1 and then all at once to see who reacts to what.

Dropping bugboi and cat-lon together for instance, would that have some unique dialogue.

I don't want to cheat spoil it by scouring the FCS either, it's more fun to watch it play out and find out that way.

[Shidan]

Yes and no. I had every unique in one place, though I used the FCS to do it (I also wasn't doing it for dialog). I had a massive battle royale between every unique character in the game, just to see what would happen. From Beep to Cat-Lon, to Cornelius and the King Gorillo, if it had the unique tag it was in this fight. Was pretty fun to watch I'll admit. :D

Nabbed some screenshots throughout the fight.

Started out with relatively small fights scattered around the arena as the competitors (total of 167 of them) took out their closest enemies.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1762727722


Some were clearly outmatched, like this Tinfist vs Cornelius matchup.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1762727967


Others were intense fights between equals.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1762728410


The fighters fought to the death, no matter how wounded they were.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1762728750
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1762728966


But in the end only one (unsurprisingly) was left standing. Though I did get a great shot of the final blow. XD
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1762729494

[The Lone Wanderer]

Damn, that's pretty epic

Tinfist winning out over Cat-Lon is surprising, especially considering he obviously cheesed the win against Cornelius, no one beats goats. No one. Unless you cheese them, they are battle hardened feta-rans