Why I won't recommend this game (long post)

[Citronvand]

It goes without saying that these are my opinions. Obviously some people like this game and will most likely disagree with me, that's fine. But if you read this and find yourself agreeing with me you might want to hold on to your money or at least wait for a sale.

I believe everyone know that this is a roguelike. Roguelikes have a big emphasis on being random (floors, enemies, loot e.t.c.), being hard and having permadeath (can't load once you die). You shouldn't be discouraged from playing a roguelike because you die a lot and have to start over. It is part of the fun experience since every run is unique. Thus this game has something to live up to since it is a roguelike. So here's what I don't like about this game:

1. Gameplay. Since it is expected to die over and over it is important that every run feels unique and fun. While the game has random floors and loot you only have 3 different classes and all of them are humans. In the expansion 2 more are added and one of them is an alien, the tarka ranger. But the game doesn't differentiate between races and classes so you can't be a human ranger or a tarka engineer. Race and class is all in one package. Now compare these 5 different "starting kits" with what other roguelikes offer. DCSS (Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup) has for example 24 races and 27 classes. That means there are 648 different "starting kits". So unless you have played that game for very long you can always try something new when you die. And it's not just starting skills and equipment that are different, most races in DCSS have something unique to add. Such as if you are playing as a Mummy you don't need to eat food, if you are a djinni you don't have health and mana, you have essence which is both your health and your mana. If you're a Troll you can't wear most armor since it's too small for you but your health regenerate very fast. This game doesn't have that.

And it's not something unique to DCSS either, most roguelikes has several races and classes. ADOM (Ancient domains of mystery) has 12 races and 22 classes. Dungeons of Dredmor doesn't have races or classes but instead something they call "skills". There are 53 of them and you pick 7 of them for a character. So you could take for example Swords, Blood Magic, Vampirism, Assassination e.t.c.

Something else I find lacking in this game is the loot. The game uses a crafting mechanic which means you find ingredients and you craft something with it. The problem is that unless you play the game for a long time and find the recipes you can't use the ingredients. You could check the wiki but that will ruin the whole "find recipes as you play" experience and will make classes such as the engineer less useful since he's good at finding recipes. So since most of the loot you will find are ingredients and you don't know the recipes it means that the majority of the loot you find will be useless. Items such as armor and weapons are very rare, for instance in 6 hours I have found 1 armor. The game doesn't have the typical unidentified scrolls, potions and wands you can find either. Now I'm not saying that a sci-fi game should have magical potions, it could be for instance nanomachines (Hideo Kojima forced me) instead of a magical potion.

So I would say that the loot is very unsatisfying.

The next point I would like to make is that the gameplay is slow. Specifically because you always have to do some check and wait whenever you manipulate something. The classic example is a locked door, and there's a lot of them. You lockpick it, but you have to wait about 2 seconds. This is because it takes a few turns to open it so enemies could come and attack you. The general idea is good, that enemies could come but since you have to wait in real life for every single thing you manipulate (opening fridges, lockers, doors, repairing stuff, hacking computers, reloading e.t.c.) it slows the game down quite a bit. And all the loot you find will be in something you have to manipulate. Except enemy drops. Even resting takes a long time to do. You are already paying for it with food, why do you, the player, have to wait a minute or 2?


2. HUD/Graphics. First of all, I very much enjoy the graphics. Most roguelikes don't have graphics and those who do have sub-par graphics. So it's not that which is the problem. One thing I don't like is that you cannot see your health, mana and food in numbers. You have to hold your mouse over the bar and wait for a tooltip to show you exactly how much health you have. You could also open the character screen. Either way it is annoying. The info on food for instance tells you how much food it will give in numbers. To make that information useful you have to know your characters food value in numbers. A lack of mini-map is also something I don't like. There is a map that is called a mini-map in-game but there is nothing mini about it since it covers the whole screen. This leads me to my next point which is the zoom system. The game has 3 different zooms, the problem with using any zoom other than the largest is that the graphics will suffer. Things such as door icons will look blurry and you will lose the sharp graphics which the largest zoom has. So naturally you want to play with the largest zoom, obviously this is a problem since now you cannot see all the enemies, for example they can shoot you off-screen. Navigating will also be a problem since you can only see a small portion of the floor you're on and the game doesn't have a mini-map. So you have to constantly zoom in and out and check your map. Which just adds to the already slow gameplay.


3. The locker. The locker was added in the expansion pack and it is a locker which you find every 5 floors. You can dump items in the locker but you cannot remove them. There is also a "xp locker" where you can dump xp instead of items. The only way to access these are to start a new game and select whatever floor you dumped the xp/items at. Then you will begin at that floor and you have access to the items and the xp with your new character.

This is very much against the spirit of roguelikes. Not only can you skip part of the game but it removes the whole "make due with what you find" experience which roguelikes are known for. It also promotes grinding since the best way to tackle the game would be to make several characters, dump their xp and items in the locker and then make the real run with all the xp and items. What happened to every run is a unique and fun experience? How many runs do you have to intentionally ruin to make your real run? And your real run is a joke since you don't start at the beginning and you have all these items to start with. If you die on that run you have to start your grind all over again. I asked the devs why they implemented this in the first place and their reply was:

"They were implemented to innovate and give people options. SF is about evolution of the form ;)

And I am sorry about your likes or dislikes but a rogue that introduces valid meta gameplay elements is, in my opinion, worth a dozen rogues with minor gimmicks. It's kinda what we do around here citron...we take chances and we innovate. Hopefully that will grow n you over time ;)"

I'm all for innovating and especially devs that talk to their community but I don't see how a feature that promotes grinding and removes a aspect of the genre is something good or fun. Surely there were some thought behind this feature? If I were to implement a thing I would first think why I do it and then if it would make the game or whatever I'm working on better. Not "It's innovative". It's not just a optional thing either, you are artificially raising the difficulty of a already hard game if you're not using it. Saying it's optional is just a cop out. You could say that anything with a problem is a optional feature. If psionics could kill all the enemies in the game just like that I could say it's not a problem since it's optional to use it.

So there you have it. If you don't agree with my reasonings it's very possible that you would enjoy this game so I'm not saying this is a bad game hands down. I'm sure a lot of people enjoy it but I am not one of them.

To sum it all up: I find the game has slow gameplay, unsatisfying loot, lack of unique starting choices, questionable hud design and it promotes grinding. That's why I won't recommend this game.

[Lord Gek]

Fair enough, thanks for stating your case. You do make some decent points there.

[Mina Miko]

If i may add, there is one weird decision i never understood. they locked the psion on easy, forcing you to finish the game on normal at first. Basicly limiting options. when i asked them, they said it was to prevent people from "rushing easy mode and put spoilers online about the psion". i find that somewhat ridiculous

[tsevahn]

While the OP did a constructive criticism and did bring all valid points, my opinion differs.
I guess I am not annoyed by those flaws so much or I just knew about some of them before I bought the game.
I would recommend this game to people who like turn based games (though not at full price unless you really can't wait).
I'm only 17 hours into it though (1st game, easy, no dlc), bought last weekend for around 2,50$.
I guess full price would have been OK after all considering I already played so many hours and many more yet to come.

I'm really enjoying this game, as much as I enjoyed Dungeon of Dredmor, though they have important differences. I didn't play any free source roguelikes like OP (tried Nethack but graphics/sounds and especially controls kept me out) so let's say I'm a casual player. If you liked Dungeons of Dredmor, here are some comparison points:
- Only 3 starting choices without DLC, not much character customization, just pick a character and go.
- So gear and crafting is more important in The Pit and I'm actually having fun with this. It's more random too depending on what items you find. In Dredmor, once you know a skill combination you like and are good at, it becomes easy whatever the difficulty (except final boss).
- There is a hunger system so you need to eat food (it's not just for health like in Dredmor) and every turn has a cost. It's in part what makes the game much more difficult than Dredmor, and I like the challenge. I must admit I'm cheating by checking the wiki to make recipes, otherwise my character would probably be dead of hunger by now!
- Just like vanilla Dredmor, you always end up with an inventory full of crap you have no idea what to trash or not lol. OP is right about that for sure, and Dredmor did tackle the problem way better in a DLC (a pocket room to store your stuff for the current character only). The Pit's DLC approach of dumping stuff for your next char does seem weird for a roguelike I guess, but it's a different game and I'll take it as it is (I'm waiting for a sale on the DLC...).
- Both games are long and slow. In Dredmor there is an option to add more floors but it doesn't make the game more difficult, just longer (and arguably more chances to get nice drops, though it often doesn't matter by that point) so I don't use it anymore. I didn't check how many floors there are in The Pit, I'm keeping the suspense on that! I feel that each added floor makes the game much harder and that's a good thing for a roguelike I think.

It is a very random game, but there are some very good games who are also very random in the challenge department like FTL and the lastest Xcom (not saying The Pit is as good, I didn't play long enough to say). You may die from an unseen enemy, from hunger because there was not enough food drops or there was no cooker through many floors. You have been warned! :)

[nobody1111]

I think they changed it in one of the lastest patches that you can no longer spawn at advanced levels.
also insteads of unidentified scrolls, you have biomods and sort that are unidentified and may change your character stats for the worse if not used carefully
And the bank IS optional, the increase in diffculty doesn't bend your arm to use it, most of the people I know don't use the bank, cause like you said, it's against the roguelike spirit

[Skidding]

I bought this game a few days ago and am enjoying it, but there are lot of things that irk me constantly about the game play.

1. Unable to turn. In this game, you have a blind spot directly behind you in a cone shape: very cool factor when in dire situations. And while I enjoy this, in order for you to look around, you have to move one square in a direction to change your blind spot. You get 2 movements per turn, and there will come a time when you either want to close a door, or face a trap to defuse it, or just check around to make sure you're not going to die again. But instead of being able to look around, you have to move, often times in to peril. I really wouldn't mind if it took movement turn for your character to dumbfoundedly and slowly move his/her head, but it has caused me to die more times than I can count. Seriously, just let me look around, even if you limit it. Taking two movements to properly position yourself while you're dying of hunger/poison/choking is ridiculous.

2. Difficulty curve =/= RNG. I shudder to think about what the harder difficulties are like when I can play as a scout and die of traps on the second f$%#ing level TWO TIMES. On normal, I've mad it to about the 10th level as an engineer with two 6 shooters: crap. Enemies get to a point where they just outgun you, and I have an inventory full of useless crap.
--I get it though: it's a roguelike. I've played ADOM hours upon hours, and have been ambushed by hydras plenty of times. But this is just a level of tedium that, while addicting, makes it impossible to progress, unless you're really, really, really lucky. As enemies progress in difficulty, so too should the drop/equipment, at least a /little/ bit!

The game is fun, there's just some things that are really annoying about it. Glad I bought it on sale: has brought me plenty of entertainment, but it can be improved.

[nobody1111]

^hold shift when you click a direction to just turn instead of walk.
wait was it shift or ctrl, I don't remember.

[Thanks4thegear]

Originally posted by POCKET SAND!:

I bought this game a few days ago and am enjoying it, but there are lot of things that irk me constantly about the game play.

1. Unable to turn. In this game, you have a blind spot directly behind you in a cone shape: very cool factor when in dire situations. And while I enjoy this, in order for you to look around, you have to move one square in a direction to change your blind spot. You get 2 movements per turn, and there will come a time when you either want to close a door, or face a trap to defuse it, or just check around to make sure you're not going to die again. But instead of being able to look around, you have to move, often times in to peril. I really wouldn't mind if it took movement turn for your character to dumbfoundedly and slowly move his/her head, but it has caused me to die more times than I can count. Seriously, just let me look around, even if you limit it. Taking two movements to properly position yourself while you're dying of hunger/poison/choking is ridiculous.

2. Difficulty curve =/= RNG. I shudder to think about what the harder difficulties are like when I can play as a scout and die of traps on the second f$%#ing level TWO TIMES. On normal, I've mad it to about the 10th level as an engineer with two 6 shooters: crap. Enemies get to a point where they just outgun you, and I have an inventory full of useless crap.
--I get it though: it's a roguelike. I've played ADOM hours upon hours, and have been ambushed by hydras plenty of times. But this is just a level of tedium that, while addicting, makes it impossible to progress, unless you're really, really, really lucky. As enemies progress in difficulty, so too should the drop/equipment, at least a /little/ bit!

The game is fun, there's just some things that are really annoying about it. Glad I bought it on sale: has brought me plenty of entertainment, but it can be improved.

if you hold ctrl and click in a direction it will turn you, you can also attack in the direction you are facing without moving while holding ctrl as well

[tsevahn]

ctrl+z to change zoom level!

Saw this today on another thread, it's saving my life right now.

Thanks for the advice on ctrl + direction to turn around, was wondering if the command even existed!

[rangerdanger]

While I LOVE this game, I kind of agree on some points. Was very nice to see someone post about their opinion or thoughts about a game, in such detail and maturely.

All I can say is, sorry you can't get any enjoyment from the game!!

[lPaladinl]

I do agree with the OP on about everything, but I still enjoy the game a lot. My biggest complaints are simply the fact that you're comparing this game to oldschool roguelikes and roguelikes made with ASCII graphics. Yes, they have much more depth than -any- game out there of the same genre, but those games are not everyone's cup of tea, even if they have optional graphics packs to remove the ASCII look, the UI's tend to also not please everyone.

And then your dislike with ingredient items being useless untill recipies are identified... Well, I do quite enjoy that I have to find and learn my way into crafting new stuff, but I will agree that it is in some way an artificial way to lengthen the game. You never will really have much progress without the recipies, so you end up grinding multiple deaths/wins until you find enough to be satisfied. Or use the wiki, which as stated, ruins a huge chunk of the game.

I would have to argue that the fact you can ruin such a large chunk of the fun the game offers simply by seeing a wiki/guide for recipies... means the game has a major flaw in that regard. However, by simply refusing to look at any guides or wiki, I still am enjoying that chunk of my games.

Many people dislike that if you can't find good enough gear by random chance, you're boned. But that's what Roguelikes usually offer. And with recipies, you can usually fashion upgrades or gear that will -usually- suffice until you find weapons to deal better damage.

I WOULD argue "Just don't use the lockers if you don't like them", except I already know the rule that if you put something in your game, and it's the best/easiest way to go about things, people will do it regardless of hating it. However I also have not played the game with DLC yet, so I cannot even experience this to begin with, yet.

One thing I do have to note about the map thing though, there is a full map for your character. Not a mini-map that's always up, but you can view the entire floor, and with certain items/buffs you can even see enemies across the map.

[NOLA_Saints]

The problem I have with this game is the amount of time you need to sink in.

This game is obviously hard but when you finally get into the later levels a bad roll of the dice will send a character you have spent 20+ hours working on to his death from some BS and get nothing out of it except maybe some recipes.

It takes way too long before you can get a remote idea that you got a bad roll of the dice and need to start over.

What makes the other "rogue" games like FTL and Rogue Legacy so much better is that you can do a quick playthrough, die, and not feel like you got screwed out of a huge chunk of time.

[Vito]

I could really like this game, it has potential. But it's a too "deep" game to be a roguelike.
Why FTL worked is because the RPG elements were simple, if you die, you don't feel like you lost some progress, something you had worked for. You just roll again,cos you know you can get to the point where you were in no time, and that the expierence is going to be way different. And yeah, FTL has 18 starting ships, the pit has 3 in the main game.

I guess it boils down to a question - is the game fun to start over? Some games are, some not. For example i LOVED to start new games in Heroes of Might and Magic. Ofcourse this game had a save/load system, but when you failed it was fun to start again, cos thats where the fun was. To choose one of 9 castles, customize all the starting stats, heroes, and then have a vast world to explore and conquer. It wasn't really that fun when you already had all the uber units from several castles, and just chased down remaining enemy forces. Which games are not fun to start over though? RPGs, games where you build your character, work for it, its not fun to fight rats with a knife. You want to get a cool armor, lightsaber or something and pwn dragons and giants. And it's not fun to lose that and go back to rats.

This is where the pit's problem is. It's not fun to die, because you lose progress, several hours of playtrough. And when you start again, you really feel like you just start the same thing all over again - BECAUSE THERE IS NO VARIETY! EVERY PLAYTHROUGH IS THE SAME!

well not exactly the same, but it doesn't feel "unique" and "fresh" enough to justify playing over and over again, and having fun in that.


Also the game is too hard, in a bullshit way. Even on easy you may never get to the bottom, because the game decides you shouldn't get any ammo or repair kits for several floors. That's not hard or even random, just BS.

[JT]

QQ QQ QQ

All i gotto say.

[DariusOne]

probably shouldn´t have said that either then.

[Arrahant]

About the locker... A lot of people will probably start at least one game lasting 10 hour easily. Then once they die, they might have found out about the locker in the meantime and use it the next try. So even with the locker that still is probably at least 10-20 hours extra, on top of the first 10 hours. It might be against roguelike policy, but it will certainly increase the number of people finishing a run. I think that's better, and people sitll have to put in plenty of effort.
Additionally, you don't have to use it yourself if you want the extra challenge! :)

I also would have loved a bit more richness in the characters a la Rogue Legacy, and a bit more variety en richness in the environments. And have parts of the 'overworld' to eplore.
But all in all, I find this a very enjoyable and accessible roguelike. It is my second one after FTL last year, and I did not like Dungeons of Dredmor. I would recommend this game to others. Great bang for your buck, and a lot of strategy is involved. It is not an easy game, not even on easy imo.