My feedback after 6/6 at 100' Difficulty

[Vodkadrinker]

Hi Guys, hi Devs!

Just completed* my last run at 100 difficulty with all characters, wanted to share some feedback!
(regarding high-diff runs with non-Kront-chars; imo sub-60's are fine for any playstyle)

1. TLDR:

Game is absolutly great, having a blast since A1. A2 is much better thought through, but numbers needs tweaking. Kront stomp is OP, Nixi is garbage. Melee needs some general adjustments, same as few difficulty modifiers. Have I mentioned that Nixi is garbage?

2. General problems:

2.1 Absence of life regen

In A2 there are some time intervals, where player must calculate that they WILL LOSE LIFE (like skellies flood at 0:00, big dudes at 10:00, flying bugsf*cks at 11:00, carpet bombers at 19:00, etc). Imo its great design that forces some adjustments on otherwise glass-cannon builds, but scarcity of life regen makes Justice regen legendary almost a must-have.

Life regen on items takes valuable affix slots and is rather weak to compensate for high-stress moments where a loss of 100-200 life in few seconds is almost unavoidable. In my winning attempts I usually had 1-2 revivals just for the sake of 'reliable' healing, not for emergency get-out-of-jail-free card. Imo best way to fix this would be to either pump up life regen affixes by 20-40%, and/or address other survivability problems (2.2-2.4). Also, having just a bit of regen on every type of character would make runs less stressful, as sometimes due to unlucky rng with monsters spawns player is hit with small chips of damage that feels almost 'permament' and unjustified.

2.2 Movement/dash penalty

That one modifier with -60% movement speed after attack is absolutly busted and is most responsible for runs being RNG-dependant. With high enough skill/game knowledge player may become 'robust' towards unlucky level-ups or absence of good map locations, but nobody except stomping Kront is durable enough to take 100'D monster spawns almost right at their face with no mobility tools.

With so large monster hit areas (2.3) and attack speed, it is impossible to dodge damage with non-summon/cast builds (where attack action is required to clear). Most visible case is one of big dudes flood at 10:00 as it usually comes down to luck check with instakill procs/timers, as its almost impossible to gather enough damage to take them all down before they attack (although possible, eg. frostnova Skadi with refresh talent). Basically if one starts attacking there is no way to correct this decision, whole pack must be taken down. Biggest upset is dash interrupting attack animation, extremaly punishing especially for Nixi / Skadi / Lorien. In my experience it is often better for them to take a hit but complete 1-3 additional attacks (and procs) than waste almost a second and get more monsters into their hit range.

Imo easiest solution would be to lower penalty on movement modifier to at least 50%, make attack non-interruptable by dash, and/or adress monster hit areas problem (2.3)

2.3 Monsters hit areas

On 100'D monsters hit areas are too big. With enough reflex and game knowledge player might deal with this with singled-out enemies, but there is no way to get out of them if there are 5+ mobs coming down from different sides (especially at 10:00 big dudes flood, or starting skellies flood at 0:00 without proper AOE tools to deal with them). Mobility problems mentioned at (2.2) get most irritating because of RNG tied with unlucky spawns.

Another thing is simple frustration tied to carpet bombers' bombs hit areas. There is no indicator, player has like ~0.3 second to decide if a bomb is going to hit or not, and it gets really difficult on certain angles with continous camera(player) movement.

Last but not least, those flying bugsf*cks 'explosions' from underneath character are somehow inconsistent in terms of hit area instantly following player after dash (sometimes they do, sometimes they dont). After ~200 runs in A2 I still cannot reliably get to escape them. Also I cannot prove this, but I feel like dashing 'away' from flying bugf*cks's fire missile/area can get You hit several times.

Imo best way to handle this would be to shrink monster hit areas by ~10% and add transparent area indicators for bombs. Other option would be to address mobility issues (2.2), that way would also work and leave this as 'git gud' factor.

2.4 Melee gap closing

Unless one plays stomping Kront, melee chars have it really hard to reliably get to important targets. Most common cases would be flying bugf*cks ziping around at 11:00 or unlucky laser cats spawns at 4:00. At 100'D one also need to accomodate for mob packs in the way and targets running away, its not as simple as single dash and one-hit-kill.

I might get eaten for this, but imo best way to handle this would be to give melee chars base dash distance/recharge
speed bonuses. This could also work to sweeten Kront stomp nerf / rework.

2.5 The Cursed / Bug Queen order

This is rather a minor issue, but imo The Cursed is much more difficult than the Bug Queen. Mostly because at 100'D his mass-summon is absolutly busted with all monster modifiers applied and one needs to have either extreme AOE damage or luck with instakill tools (at 7:00 time!) to not lose half of his hp in a second. Additionally, its somewhat random due to type of curse he throws at player and whether he decides to mass-summon or place his raining cloud skill first.
In comparison, Bug Queen fight is much more predictable and less dependant on specific tools one might or might not have.

2.6 Bosses action speed and health

Currently bosses are just cherries on top of their terrifing monster waves. Honestly if one survives to boss encounter, its rather certain they will win (unless instagibbed by Djinn's flamefhrower without pillar around or insta attack/slow curse into mass-summon by The Cursed). Its absolutly personal thing, I would happily see bosses with much more HP (like +100-200%), but with less action speed (and damage). That would make encounters much more skill based, less RNG dependant and less of a visual clutter (like Djinn fights can be).

2.7 Additive vs multiplicative uncertainty

Items stats, talents stats, blessings stats - currently there is no way but by testing to tell which ones are additive, which are multiplicative, and which belongs to diffrent 'baskets' of multiplicative (if any). This can get very confusing, especially when minmaxing for high difficulties. Any change towards clear communication how "+damage", "% more damage", "% damage dealt", "% damage taken", "[general]/[type] damage" etc. interacts with one another would be MUCH appreciated.

3. Heroes:

In sub-30'D all playstyles are viable, though dash/cast builds require much more sophisticated gear. In 100'D however, there is almost no space for non-optimal build or gods choices, and in case of underperforming melee chars - it simply requires a restart-grindfest to get necessary tools by level 10.

3.1 Kront

Managed to complete 100'D with stomp (warchief) / power-conversion oriented build:
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197990665263/screenshot/2478744714371451779/

Warchief is simply OP, imo needs a rework as it completly trivializes game. Enrage multiplicative stats conversion with another 'baskets' of multiplication via Krom or Summer blessings ramps damage easily up to 500k (just for my 1-run testing without proper gear, pretty sure its possible to get over 1 mil with proper setup). Together with 700-1000hp and heavy armor makes him way too strong, difficulty simply isnt there.

3.2 Nixi

Managed to complete* 100'D with poison darts / crit+attspeed oriented build:
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197990665263/screenshot/2478744714371440065/

Nixi is garbage. She was my favourite char by far in A1, now in A2 at 100'D shes just outright bad. There are no reliable survivability talents on her tree, her attack is extremely narrow and short. This, combined with issues of (2.1-2.4) forces player to get almost god-tier items, combining necessary survivability affixes with crit/attspeed/area on every piece of gear. On top of that, I simply dont see a way of completing 100'D without not only 4-6 legendary blessings (strictly from Krom+Mort+Justice), but also when tools dont come in almost perfect order (due to first 2 minutes of skellies flood being so punishing, then with The Cursed requiring a quick kill). Even with gear, skill, and thought through game plan, its RNGesus take the wheel.

Also her shadowshift-oriented builds are completely useless on higher difficulties and poison is just the best of bad options. If only it could stack better, than it might be at least a good tool against bosses (as it would ramp up in time; now everything MUST die within ~3-5 seconds of spawn or else player will lose more or less hp).

Imo improving her basic attack area would be a great start. This plus some survivability talents would already make her into enjoyable high-skill char, instead of miracle one-in-a-hundred-runs-maybe grindtrophy.
Fix pls.

*completed meaning technically failing with Nixi at ~15% on Djinn, but it was absolutly possible if only I managed to get Justice regen legendary a bit sooner (to not waste one of revivals on trash early), or just find dmg/healing shrine for Djinn arena. As it takes much RNG grind with restarts to even get started with proper circumstaces, I will update with 'actual' victory in (I hope) few days.

3.3 Avoron

Managed to complete 100'D with Vanguard / desert rose / retribution (thorns) build:
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197990665263/screenshot/2478744714371448918/

Avoron is great. I insisted on completing 100'D with another way of playing, thus decided for 'thorns' build. Though it required some restarts and gear tweaking, it was overall very enjoyable experience. And after all the pain with Nixi I'm pretty sure his arsenal is also suitable for 'standard' melee playthough.

3.4 Merris

Managed to complete 100'D with summons build:
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197990665263/screenshot/2478744714371450599/

Merris is also great. Much more suitable for summon builds than Skadi, much better caster than Lorien, much more elastic overall in terms of gods and blessings. She can be played successfully in many ways on 100'D (though dash builds/skills would need complete rework to be viable there).

3.5 Skadi

Managed to complete 100'D with summons / status (Mythology+Hoardfrost) build:
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197990665263/screenshot/2478744714371445882/

Skadi is imo best designed char, capable of playing many different styles (its just that some of them lacks a bit at 100'D). As for quality-of-life I would make wolfs talent description (and parrot 'enchancements' on gear) more precise, as 'increased value from any Damage, [...] bonuses' dont really point if they improve on PLAYER's attack stats, or SUMMON attack stats. Maybe I'm just dumb, but at first I thought they are unique in a way that combines few summons with player attack-oriented builds.

Also Adept - Heroic Training oriented builds are fun due to their multiplicative nature, but extremely inconsistent and frustrating to pull off. If only there was some switch built in to stop / convert expert (master) blessings chance, that would be great.

3.6 Lorien

Managed to complete 100'D with Bask in Greatness / strike build:
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197990665263/screenshot/2478744714371447413/

Bask in Greatness is busted, imho bugged in some way. It procs wayyy too many times, or at least its interractions with Mort's sickles. Overall a great character, I just cant get him to work as well with caster builds as with pure damage / strike oriented ones. It would also be welcome to precise description / rework skill for Lancinating Shots (+dmg after pierce) for multiple pierces (effects stack?) and after converting pierces to bounces (effects still work? stack per bounce?). Nevertheless, great design.

Lastly the Sharpshooter unique RARE bow - its too strong, I found comparable / slightly better MYTHIC one only after 100+ runs.

4. Thanks for reading!

Overall - game is fkn great and I look forward to A3 <3 Just needs some polishing and bugfixing.
Thanks for reading, comments welcome! :)

[MrQun]

That was a good read and an excellent criticism of the new update. Unfortunately I fear that the devs take away from this will be to nerf stomp Kront. I don't mean to sound like a d##k, but they do seem to have a track record of nerfing over performing abilities as oppose to buffing abilities that are under performing.

[Hormesis]

i almost feel like the kront being the most powerful character and nixi the worst was intentional, after the opposite being true for most of act 1. back when strike + luck builds and ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ on kront were all the rave.

agreed with pretty much everything you said, at least the bits i had experience with, and that goes doubly so with the uncertainty in the additive vs multiplicative scaling, as well as the ambiguity on how some skills SHOULD scale vs how the actually scale.

[Qinjin]

Now this is more like it for how to do feedback. I'm currently in the process of 100D with everyone as well, and had planned on making a comprehensive write up afterwards.

Thanks for taking the time sharing your thoughts, hopefully it is taken into consideration.

[DarkFury]

Very good insight. I do not agree on everything but on most :). Good to see someone not molding like most ppl do here - but giving constructive criticism :).

Originally posted by Vodkadrinker:

Hi Guys, hi Devs!

I might get eaten for this, but imo best way to handle this would be to give melee chars base dash distance/recharge
speed bonuses. This could also work to sweeten Kront stomp nerf / rework.

Not gonna eat you .. but I would much prefer the Star Crux "- Movement speed when attacking " note be changed into sth else. Those are free difficulty points on any summoner / caster and just very punishing for any attacker - especially melee...

I would rather change it to sth like: More Elites / more "special enemies" like carpet bombers etc.

[Z3Sleeper]

Can you elaborate on how you built Skadi? She's the last one for me and I have no idea what I'm looking for here (I tried summon + status focused builds, sounds like you did both at the same time?).

[Fulcrum52]

Nixi is actually very powerful at 100 darkness when completely opting out of basic attack and just focusing on firedashing. Can kill Djinn in seconds or a single second if God of War + Hoarfrost. Shadowshift counts as a status so the Shivers blessing can increase the duration by up to 160%.

[mic01851165]

Can you share your gear piece for your summoner merris.
I tried to make it work in 100 but it's so hard to survive no matter what i try lol
It's usually not the boss that kill me but the mobs cuz this build rely on AI to protect you and mobs just chase you too fast/ track you too good at darkness 100.
I have onyx dragon on 2 piece of my gear, one fire genie, and 3 parrots on glove.
I have a tier 1 28 skeleton unique amulet too so not sure dragon + damage % vs 28 skeleton which is better.
I have around 150% summon damage total on gear i think. (excluding skill tree)

[ZeppMan217]

Originally posted by Fulcrum52:

Nixi is actually very powerful at 100 darkness when completely opting out of basic attack and just focusing on firedashing. Can kill Djinn in seconds or a single second if God of War + Hoarfrost. Shadowshift counts as a status so the Shivers blessing can increase the duration by up to 160%.

Really? I thought Hoarfrost only affected statuses put on enemies.

[DuranArgith]

Well thought and well written. Basically the same conclusions I came to in my own darknesss 100 thread.

[Julez]

Great feedback. Mostly my thoughts exactly. Ironically Star crux 100 is both a very good and very bad way to measure the games balancing.

Its bad because it was never designed to be a fair fight. It's supposed to be the ultimate challenge. Not a casual walk trough where everything goes. The scaling simply isn't in tune with the enemy design. The bees are fine on D'0. But with buffed area & speed they are unbearable. The first few levels are the deciding factor whether I get a blessing I can build my run around that simultaneously clears the first couple waves until I get my build running. Otherwise it's a wipe and reset. 10 alterations or not, pure rng.

Its good because it shows which builds are viable no matter the adversities. Which skills can scale well enough to beat the game no matter what. And which ones are getting carried by the gods blessings alone due to low difficulty (I'm looking at you Shadow Shift, for the love of god I couldn't make that ability work it was poison all the way on D'50+)

Overall I think the update was a great leap forward in every aspect. The trees need a lot of fine tuning. I wish every tree path was equally good to an extend.
I hope that more gods get a bit more survivability options similar how we got more summons/ offensive options on gods that didn't have them before. Right now it's mostly Justice + Krom that carries every D'100 run to victory.

On a side note ...
How are you guys still struggling with the carpet bombers?! They are literally the least of my concerns unless I play on slow ass Avoron who can't catch up with them. Their attacks target your predicted movement direction so I just Zig Zag dodge all their attacks unless I manage to trap myself with Ninhs wall.

[DuranArgith]

Well the problem is, you can do any darkness level with different parameters. Therefore you can only balance the game on either normal 0 darkness or on 100 darkness and nowhere in between.

Any build can win normal mode, even with no gear and no talents, so that leaves only one choice.

I think the developers painted themselves in a corner, hmm?

[mic01851165]

Originally posted by DuranArgith:

Well the problem is, you can do any darkness level with different parameters. Therefore you can only balance the game on either normal 0 darkness or on 100 darkness and nowhere in between.

Any build can win normal mode, even with no gear and no talents, so that leaves only one choice.

I think the developers painted themselves in a corner, hmm?

The deeper corner they dig themselves in is the powercreep per act advancement.
When a3 release are all our hardearn gear gonna be trash again cuz dev just gonna triple all the values from both gears and mobs ?

Basically there's no reason to ever get back to act 1 ever since a2 release cuz all the drops gonna be garbage in act 1.

[Zoid13]

fair post. ive also done D100 on everyone and agree with a lot of the feedback.

however

1 thing to keep in mind. D100 isn't a character power benchmark the Devs use for anything. D30 is their benchmark. that's also where the reward scaling stop's and every character and build works perfectly fine for D30. ( i do agree that there's some massive power differences between characters)

they were never expecting D100 to even be possible when they released the patch.

D31-100 was just a 'something extra to play with" addition and shouldn't be / isn't used as a benchmark for balance.

[Z3Sleeper]

Originally posted by DuranArgith:

Well the problem is, you can do any darkness level with different parameters. Therefore you can only balance the game on either normal 0 darkness or on 100 darkness and nowhere in between.

Any build can win normal mode, even with no gear and no talents, so that leaves only one choice.

I think the developers painted themselves in a corner, hmm?

This is a player issue really. We see that max difficulty is 100 and naturally that's what we strive for.

So really it's on the dev to decide if that's what they want for the players or if they should cap it and give us more of a "choice" on which darknesses we want to activate to reach the cap.

I'd personally like 2 or 3 more options for a total of 130 or so Darkness but keep the cap at 100 so we can decide which ones we should drop or keep for each of our builds without feeling like we're cheating ourselves by not maxing out on 130 since 100 would be the set cap (I hate the self-slow).

[DuranArgith]

Originally posted by Z3Sleeper:

Originally posted by DuranArgith:

Well the problem is, you can do any darkness level with different parameters. Therefore you can only balance the game on either normal 0 darkness or on 100 darkness and nowhere in between.

Any build can win normal mode, even with no gear and no talents, so that leaves only one choice.

I think the developers painted themselves in a corner, hmm?

This is a player issue really. We see that max difficulty is 100 and naturally that's what we strive for.

So really it's on the dev to decide if that's what they want for the players or if they should cap it and give us more of a "choice" on which darknesses we want to activate to reach the cap.

I'd personally like 2 or 3 more options for a total of 130 or so Darkness but keep the cap at 100 so we can decide which ones we should drop or keep for each of our builds without feeling like we're cheating ourselves by not maxing out on 130 since 100 would be the set cap (I hate the self-slow).

Why even have conditions at all? Just lock darkness at 100 since you already did it (stupidly if you asked me since they just upped the limit without even testing it, the whole act 2 feels rushed and untested and the extra darkness seem to have been a last minute addition) and then just up the general stats of the enemies. That is not the issue though.
It does not matter at all about darkness 100, just look at how overpowered the ranged classes are: They have Fates gemini for 5 extra projectiles, rampaging strike for extra 3 and up to 4 extra attack projectiles from what I have seen in items. Not to mention piercing and bouncing or even homing projectiles. So their attack power and area increases tremendously. What do the melee characters get?
And if pure attack builds weren't enough, Merris and Lorien can cover the entire screen in casts and strikes to the point where you cannot even see the ground. I have screenshots of this.