Survivalist Perk Tree/ Class (Reworking)

[Coolguy]

I've played a lot of KF2 and have seen the potential (and tested it) of all the classes in the game, and by far the most dissapointing out of the bunch is the Survivalist. Yes I understand he's supposed to be a class for any and all situations, but he fails terribly at it, for the simple facts that he cannot do enough damage to keep up with the zeds HP, and gets outshone by any other classes that are lvl 5-10 while he's at max level.

So what I'm proposing is:

a change to his passive class benefits by adding a 0.8%-1.2% decrease in the price of shop items (to give players more incentive to play him as a way of acquiring the power weapons just a little quicker/ so players can make a strategy around him for lower level waves, to benefit them later on)

and or, changing some of his perks, since most of them fall under the catagory of "Utility" perks, and not actually something that matters in the game, having 5 extra pounds and molotovs is nice, but that doesn't mean anything if he's not able to:

A. Kill trash mobs faster/ easier than other classes,

or B. Kill big threats (Scrakes/ Fleshpounds) easier/ faster than other classes.

Every class in the game can fill at least one of those requirements except Survivalist. What I'm proposing on the perk end is:
Implementing as tier 1 perks: tactical reload, with rack em' up as the second choice;

tier 2 perks would be the same just with more benefits to them (25% to cooldown time on syringes is very unnoticeable, as is 10% extra damage to melee attacks) the other aspects of them are fine, I'd say doubling the aforementioned unnoticeable perks would be a good simple fix;

tier 3 perks need buffs to allow for more efficient playing, for the molotovs I'd say add a 25% longer burn time and, or 20%-25% damage to firebug weapons. And for the medic grenades, increase heals by more (10%-15% since there is already another healing perk on this class) and or increase the duration/ damage of the grenades by 25%;

tier 4 perks: increase the damage of Zed-splosion 5x-10x, since 10 damage isn't going to do anything to zeds, and maybe add a slight damage boost (5%) to the Make things go boom skill (the reason I say maybe is because that is one of the really well balanced perks to go along with his natural perk damage bonus);

tier 5 perks: I don't really know how to critic Zed Time Perks since they are not really meant to be as consistent as the other perks, so leaving them would be fine.

I'm making this post in hopes that Survivalist will be given some sort of redeeming quality to make him see play more often/ make him more useful to the team than he is. Feedback is always accepted :D

[Borgar Cat]

Molotov is not gimmick for Firebug, but not on Survivalist and it will be better if players will have chice between area-denial grenade and something that goes BANG! Like yeah, return HE for lvl15.

[Cursed]

I feel like even a nerfed rack em up would be enough to make him useful like 30% instead of 50%

[Coolguy]

Konrad The Big Cat の投稿を引用：

Molotov is gimmick for every class ecept Firebug and it will be better if players will have chice between area-denial grenade and something that goes BANG! Like yeah, return HE for lvl15.

Not to be rude, but isn't Firebug the only class that can use molotovs? I also think that it's pretty silly that you aren't given the choice for that, when arguebly the HE grenade could/ would be better at killing trash zeds (and it would get support in his current skill tree setup from the Make Things go Boom skill (+25% Expl. Radius)).
It's dissapointing that he has little to no Firebug support still, considering he's supposed to be an all rounder, but is missing an entire class's potential due to the lack of perks for it.

[Coolguy]

Blessed の投稿を引用：

I feel like even a nerfed rack em up would be enough to make him useful like 30% instead of 50%

Yeah, 50% Extra damage on a machine gun would be pretty game-breaking. So a reduction like that would make sense, and it would make him more viable!

[Borgar Cat]

Coolguy1079 の投稿を引用：

Not to be rude, but isn't Firebug the only class that can use molotovs? I also think that it's pretty silly that you aren't given the choice for that, when arguebly the HE grenade could/ would be better at killing trash zeds (and it would get support in his current skill tree setup from the Make Things go Boom skill (+25% Expl. Radius)).
It's dissapointing that he has little to no Firebug support still, considering he's supposed to be an all rounder, but is missing an entire class's potential due to the lack of perks for it.

Well, since Survivalist is a class, I guess Molotovs for now are somewhat crossperk.
And yeah, you see it, right? Like the only thing we have from FB is the worst skill of that tree - Zed Shrapnel.
But, in other hand there's now no any place forfirebug's skills in that tree.

[Coolguy]

Konrad The Big Cat の投稿を引用：

Coolguy1079 の投稿を引用：

Not to be rude, but isn't Firebug the only class that can use molotovs? I also think that it's pretty silly that you aren't given the choice for that, when arguebly the HE grenade could/ would be better at killing trash zeds (and it would get support in his current skill tree setup from the Make Things go Boom skill (+25% Expl. Radius)).
It's dissapointing that he has little to no Firebug support still, considering he's supposed to be an all rounder, but is missing an entire class's potential due to the lack of perks for it.

Well, since Survivalist is a class, I guess Molotovs for now are somewhat crossperk.
And yeah, you see it, right? Like the only thing we have from FB is the worst skill of that tree - Zed Shrapnel.
But, in other hand there's now no any place forfirebug's skills in that tree.

Yeah. I don't understand who thought that was a good idea for him as a skill (unless it is to get a buff). What may be a good solution (other than the aforementioned) to allow him more/ better of everything is if he was allowed a third perk tree with the perks to support the classes who don't get support from him.

[Coolguy]

Bump

[Borgar Cat]

Still got questions.
1) Is Tactical Reload applied to all weapons now?
2)What to do with Weapon Harness?
3) Where to put Firebug related skills?
4) Remove Molotov and leave choice between HE and Healing grenade?

[Coolguy]

Konrad The Big Cat の投稿を引用：

Still got questions.
1) Is Tactical Reload applied to all weapons now?
2)What to do with Weapon Harness?
3) Where to put Firebug related skills?
4) Remove Molotov and leave choice between HE and Healing grenade?

1.) Yes, that would be the case with these proposed reworkings.
2.) What would be a good course of actions for it would be: a 25% longer burn time and, or 20%-25% damage to firebug weapons, along with the 5 Extra Ibs (or a third perk tree for Survivalist to throw it under, but that's highly unlikely to happen).
3.-4.) Pairing it with the Weapon Harness skill, or adding it to the 3rd theoretical perk tree perk (on that tree it would be paired with molotov, leaving the Weapon Harness skill with the default grenade instead.)
Does that answer any of your questions?

[Borgar Cat]

Coolguy1079 の投稿を引用：

Konrad The Big Cat の投稿を引用：

Still got questions.
1) Is Tactical Reload applied to all weapons now?
2)What to do with Weapon Harness?
3) Where to put Firebug related skills?
4) Remove Molotov and leave choice between HE and Healing grenade?

1.) Yes, that would be the case with these proposed reworkings.
2.) What would be a good course of actions for it would be: a 25% longer burn time and, or 20%-25% damage to firebug weapons, along with the 5 Extra Ibs (or a third perk tree for Survivalist to throw it under, but that's highly unlikely to happen).
3.-4.) Pairing it with the Weapon Harness skill, or adding it to the 3rd theoretical perk tree perk (on that tree it would be paired with molotov, leaving the Weapon Harness skill with the default grenade instead.)
Does that answer any of your questions?

Well, yes.. kinda.
But unhappy about having a Molotov, even with Firebug skills.
And I guess there's no need in Zed-splosion then, right?

[Coolguy]

Konrad The Big Cat の投稿を引用：

Coolguy1079 の投稿を引用：

1.) Yes, that would be the case with these proposed reworkings.
2.) What would be a good course of actions for it would be: a 25% longer burn time and, or 20%-25% damage to firebug weapons, along with the 5 Extra Ibs (or a third perk tree for Survivalist to throw it under, but that's highly unlikely to happen).
3.-4.) Pairing it with the Weapon Harness skill, or adding it to the 3rd theoretical perk tree perk (on that tree it would be paired with molotov, leaving the Weapon Harness skill with the default grenade instead.)
Does that answer any of your questions?

Well, yes.. kinda.
But unhappy about having a Molotov, even with Firebug skills.
And I guess there's no need in Zed-splosion then, right?

Really a third perk tree would help him so much in being flexible to a player's play style, cause leaving that 5 Extra Ibs. with the default grenade would allow him to play more like a support (aspect wise), whilist still allowing someone the opportunity to play a more Firebug oriented role. Pretty much. It's a terrible perk.

[torrenz]

I have some thoughts of my own, mostly in line with yours, so I'll leave em here

besides setting you on fire pretty consistently, molotovs only last half as long on the ground as they do for firebugs and the burns they inflict are obviously also shorter
+15% ammo and medic nades are so much better there's almost no reason to pass it up, which is a shame since 20 weight survivalist opens up even more playstyles and combos. I'd give molotovs self-damage immunity and 10s duration along with something like +25% weapon swap speed to give more quality of life for your huge loadouts.

the field medic perk is not quite good enough to compete with the 25% speed berserker perk. most of the time it's too big a risk to lose the versatility of the speed boost for your personal survival. it could have a SMALL health boost or other source of survivability to make it worthwhile.

survivalist's passive "heavy" body armor causes your armor to absorb 100% of damage while you have it instead of partial health/armor split which is strictly a bad thing at all times. either get rid of this downside or add something to compensate like a way to regain small amounts of the armor during waves.

zed-time perks are pretty plain and low-impact compared to others (though the passive reload speed is great). The wording on Lockdown has a common problem of ambiguity as it isn't specified whether the increase is by or to a percentage. In this case it's increased to 200% which is fairly weak considering survivalist has no other sources of affliction boosts. You could inflict more total affliction by firing 3x faster with Madman, which isn't as big a boost as other perks get and has no side bonus like infinite ammo. Some improvements to make these perks stand out would be nice.

surv powah!

[Coolguy]

torrenz の投稿を引用：

I have some thoughts of my own, mostly in line with yours, so I'll leave em here

besides setting you on fire pretty consistently, molotovs only last half as long on the ground as they do for firebugs and the burns they inflict are obviously also shorter
+15% ammo and medic nades are so much better there's almost no reason to pass it up, which is a shame since 20 weight survivalist opens up even more playstyles and combos. I'd give molotovs self-damage immunity and 10s duration along with something like +25% weapon swap speed to give more quality of life for your huge loadouts.

the field medic perk is not quite good enough to compete with the 25% speed berserker perk. most of the time it's too big a risk to lose the versatility of the speed boost for your personal survival. it could have a SMALL health boost or other source of survivability to make it worthwhile.

survivalist's passive "heavy" body armor causes your armor to absorb 100% of damage while you have it instead of partial health/armor split which is strictly a bad thing at all times. either get rid of this downside or add something to compensate like a way to regain small amounts of the armor during waves.

zed-time perks are pretty plain and low-impact compared to others (though the passive reload speed is great). The wording on Lockdown has a common problem of ambiguity as it isn't specified whether the increase is by or to a percentage. In this case it's increased to 200% which is fairly weak considering survivalist has no other sources of affliction boosts. You could inflict more total affliction by firing 3x faster with Madman, which isn't as big a boost as other perks get and has no side bonus like infinite ammo. Some improvements to make these perks stand out would be nice.

surv powah! :MastemaHellSkull::kag_flex:

I like those fixes for the T3 perks! (It's just sad that he doesn't have as much Firebug support xD).
And now thinking about it yeah, even if the perk for the extra healing potential was doubled it'd still be pretty overshadowed by the movement speed of the melee perk. Maybe instead of a health boost (or paired with it) it could have a very slight passive heal, like 1HP every second.
I do like the heavy armor, but do think he needs some kind of support for it. It's nice to have that tankiness, but it really does a number on your wallet (and considering his general placement in kills on the team leaderboard that's a problem!). Giving the survivalist 20 Armor a wave, or allowing him to heal 5 armor to himself (every one of his syringes he uses on self), or maybe giving him a 30%-50% discount on armor would be a couple of ways of helping it.
That sounds pretty nice for the Zed-Time perks! (Sorry I don't have a lot to say in regard to them, I don't know how to judge Zed-Time perks)

[Fumo Bnnuy n Frends]

Honestly survivalist is really good if you keep aiming for the head and using melee weapons to save on money and also be usefl.

Survivalist is the ultimate class/perk to master because there is no meta for it. Unlike perks like zerker that is encourged to use the plummeter and medic the assault medigun to heal everyone, gain money by healing, and boost them up, survivalist doesn't have a set meta.

Sometimes there are weapons that work, others not. It depends alot on team composition and the map.
personally the zed damage problem isn't too bad if you are in a team, you can focus on trash zeds or killing off big zeds but one by one on your own.

The thing that would probably buff survivalist more than anything would be a variety of off perk weapons, in which no one perk gains a buff, but survivalist is be default buffed, making off perk weapons good for base perks to use as secondary weapons, while survivalist can use them as his primaries.

They mentioned putting a freeze styled flamethrower that slows or make freezes zeds still like cryofreeze grenades for sharpshooter.

[Coolguy]

『SheerTakeItEasyAttack』TF2SP の投稿を引用：

Honestly survivalist is really good if you keep aiming for the head and using melee weapons to save on money and also be usefl.

Survivalist is the ultimate class/perk to master because there is no meta for it. Unlike perks like zerker that is encourged to use the plummeter and medic the assault medigun to heal everyone, gain money by healing, and boost them up, survivalist doesn't have a set meta.

Sometimes there are weapons that work, others not. It depends alot on team composition and the map.
personally the zed damage problem isn't too bad if you are in a team, you can focus on trash zeds or killing off big zeds but one by one on your own.

The thing that would probably buff survivalist more than anything would be a variety of off perk weapons, in which no one perk gains a buff, but survivalist is be default buffed, making off perk weapons good for base perks to use as secondary weapons, while survivalist can use them as his primaries.

They mentioned putting a freeze styled flamethrower that slows or make freezes zeds still like cryofreeze grenades for sharpshooter.

This is what I used to think about Survivalist. Every class is supposed to headshot Zeds, they're just not punished for not doing so (excluding the Sharpshooter), if they weren't they wouldn't receive any bonus on headshot damage, compared to other classes it can take anywhere from 1-2 more bullets to kill Zeds as a Survivalist (excluding obvious 1 shot Kill weapons to trash mobs), which may not sound like a lot, but that's 2x-3x the ammo it'll take to mow down a crowd of trash zeds. The only reason you'd choose the meleeing perk is for the survivability it offers you, the damage is negligible (25% at max level to melee hits, when compared to Berserker who gets that much dps (plus more) at level 10), the opportunity to run away (and survive) is really what'll save your bacon.

Survivalist should be the ultimate class perk for people with skill, but the way his current setup is, is if you have the most skill on a team (let's say composed of 10-25's) who has even the slightest idea how to play their class you'll end up last to second to last on the leaderboard everytime. Why? Because he doesn't have a role that is efficient at killing A). Trash Zeds; B). Big Zeds; when compared to everyone else he's unique, in that, yes he doesn't have any meta end game, that's really bad! (Meta stands for: Most Efficient Tactic Available. How is that a good thing not having one?).

True, but that applies to every team though, you wouldn't play a full team of Firebugs on HoE and expect to beat it with ease (in regards to weapons that work vs. don't work). The problem with that is you're like a support for kills, as in, you help others get kills, you're not contributing to the team as much as any other class (level 10+) could contribute doing the same thing.

That sounds pretty interesting! Could you elaborate more on it, I'd love to hear the ideas you'd have for a reworking like that. A reworking like that would really help his class, balancing it out to make him the way he is supposed to be, a useful all rounder (that isn't played just for uniqueness of utility, but also because he supports whatever playstyle the player wants to use, more than that of a level 10 in said playstyle (Class)).

It sounds like what they're trying to do is mould him to be a support for people killing zeds. Which isn't a bad thing, as long as they supply weapons that cause incapacitation for him, and explicitly put it as: This is what this class excels the most at, you can use other weapons, but this is your bread & butter.
It is a bad thing when they imply he's an all rounder, and he does very poorly at everything, so they add a weapon specifically for his class. Instead of improving his passives, and or perk tree to make him a better choice for a team.