Some comments on EULAs

[[TW]Wilsonam]

Rather than post in this EULA thread, which already runs to a few pages, I'll just start a new one and drop a few comments.

1. We actually put our EULA out in the open, so everyone can read it. It isn't hiding on page 37 of a game manual, that is tucked away somewhere in your game files. It is written to be (at least vaguely) understandable by someone who is not a lawyer.

2. Just about ALL the games you are buying on Steam and anywhere else are actually a license to use. Yes, that is likely to become an issue in the EU at some point. Someone much smarter than me (probably at Valve, cos they're all smarter than me) will work out how to handle that. If you are twitchy, because you've read our EULA - try reading everyone else's! There's some real horrors out there.

3. People are worried that we can "take your game away". Well, yes, we can. We've sold around 10 million games over the last 10 years. We have, I believe, taken away games from about 2 people. One of those was later convicted as a hacker in court.

4. We added the pieces to the EULA about "behaviors" as a reaction to really evil behaviors which are simply not appropriate in multi-player or co-op games. Or anywhere in civilized society, for that matter.

So what does this mean? It just means that we wanted to make it clear where we stand. We don't have any intention (or the time, frankly) to start policing servers and hunting down people who use bad language at each other.

Its there so that, if at some point in the future, some individual gets utterly out of control and is being abusive to enough thousands of people to come to our attention - we can actually take action.

For the other 99.999% of the population - play on! We're not watching or tracking you or anything else. We have wayyyy better things to do - like making games.

[[LUE] Fat Chick Thriller]

so the other guy that you took his game away from, what did he do to deserve it?

[@theweedfather]

Originally posted by LUE The Fat Chick Thrilller:

so the other guy that you took his game away from, what did he do to deserve it?

what "other guy"?
Vague post is vague.

[Dime]

Originally posted by TWWilsonam:

Rather than post in Its there so that, if at some point in the future, some individual gets utterly out of control and is being abusive to enough thousands of people to come to our attention - we can actually take action.

I think the best alternative would be to change the wording, if you're adamant on this being your stance. Right now it sounds like you have a hair trigger to remove Killing Floor 2 from someone's account. It's scary thinking that at one slip-up I could lose access to a $30 game.

Everything you guys have said so far is also very vague, which isn't helping.

[[LUE] Fat Chick Thriller]

Originally posted by 47:

Originally posted by LUE The Fat Chick Thrilller:

so the other guy that you took his game away from, what did he do to deserve it?

what "other guy"?
Vague post is vague.

Originally posted by TWWilsonam:

We have, I believe, taken away games from about 2 people. One of those was later convicted as a hacker in court.

[Alegzander]

Originally posted by Dime:

Originally posted by TWWilsonam:

Rather than post in Its there so that, if at some point in the future, some individual gets utterly out of control and is being abusive to enough thousands of people to come to our attention - we can actually take action.

I think the best alternative would be to change the wording, if you're adamant on this being your stance. Right now it sounds like you have a hair trigger to remove Killing Floor 2 from someone's account. It's scary thinking that at one slip-up I could lose access to a $30 game.

I agree.I've also posted on the EULA thread and i was strongly against this.Reading your post tho, i now understand better how things stand.
The EULA is written kind of badly in my honest opinion and leaves too much room for interpretation.That's what got some people, including myself, freaked out.
That, and the fact that it seems lately more companies want to restrict things for the consumer, even if Steam already covers most of the things mentioned in there.
Anyways, my 2 cents.

[Ghost Hardware]

Is it not up to whomever runs the server to ban a user who is breaking the rules? Why are you putting out threats of, lets be honest here, banning people if they say or do something you disagree with inside a video game? This is a video game they've paid for. Something like "griefing" for example is so wide open to interpretation that I don't know how you'll deal with it.

[LastSide]

So in our servers we can have men in hammock and woman in bikinis?

[Yoshiro]

Originally posted by LastSide:

So in our servers we can have men in hammock and woman in bikinis?

If that is what you want to do.

[LastSide]

Originally posted by TWYoshiro:

Originally posted by LastSide:

So in our servers we can have men in hammock and woman in bikinis?

If that is what you want to do.

A Rambo running around and a Sonya kicking ass... nice!

[[TW]Wilsonam]

Originally posted by Ghost Hardware:

Is it not up to whomever runs the server to ban a user who is breaking the rules? Why are you putting out threats of, lets be honest here, banning people if they say or do something you disagree with inside a video game? This is a video game they've paid for. Something like "griefing" for example is so wide open to interpretation that I don't know how you'll deal with it.

Absolutely up to the server admins. This stuff is only there in case of someone spending insane numbers of hours trolling across 100s/1000s of servers. Key point in the original post - we do not have the time (or the interest) for that sort of thing. Its only so that we have something in hand for the REALLY extreme cases, the real outliers - like the 1 or 2 in 10 million.

People are looking for us to be some sort of "evil empire". We have better things to do, seriously :)

[MajorLag <∞>]

Originally posted by TWYoshiro:

Originally posted by LastSide:

So in our servers we can have men in hammock and woman in bikinis?

If that is what you want to do.

I think it would be more accurate to say "If that's what you want to do and what we allow you to do".

The EULA sounds like this would be okay as long as nobody who visits the server takes offense to it. Perhaps someone finds the bikini sexist. What would prevent the sever host from having his game key revoked? Your good will?

I hope you see where I'm going with this. You guys have made solid games and you are one of the few developers I still respect, but why bother adding this into the EULA when it could just as easily be left out? If it really only happened to two people, why would you even attempt to do something that can be misconstrued this much?

[Boruvkov]

"Or anywhere in civilized society" If this is what you call a "Civilized Society" then give me death, This is just pure insanity! When people get jailed over a joke tweet for 50~ freakin' days, you call that civilized? Or that people need to be over 18 to buy a freaking fork so he can stab&cut his beef?

I guess this is also what the humankind gets for building society and culture only later to be shamed away by white guilt because he dint get the preferred pronums of somebody right.

I prefer living in a "backwards" medieval society compared to the society of now which you call it as "civilized", atleast the people back then have thicker skin compared to now

"because you've read our EULA - try reading everyone else's! There's some real horrors out there."

Too bad that your EULA is part of the "horror" as you name it, you are not making anything better with those EULA, infact you are worsening it.



". People are worried that we can "take your game away". Well, yes, we can."

Oh cool, so I can pay 50 federal reserve bucks for your "game" and as soon I did something that you dont like or even -worse- I hurt your feelings, even when that happend on private servers. You are taking the game away that I bought. Oh right I forget we dont own games anymore we are "lending" them only so to speak.

1 more reason why I should not buy your game and tell my friends to do the same.

I am not going to drink your freaking SJW koolaid, so much for humanity progress.

I wouldnt also be surprised if this post gets deleted because I just triggered you which is just as bad as PTSD suffered by US soldiers.

[EternalReaper]

If I'm understanding this correctly, then:

This is typically just used as a fallback plan in case of a very serious issue, like what Wilsonam said. Most, if not all, developers would let server owners/administrators handle their own terms when it comes to malicious players, but it never hurts to actually have set rules from the higher ups so that when the time comes, the person at fault cannot try to wiggle themselves out of it. People do try their best to get around everything, especially gray areas of rules/agreements, so it's definitely a good approach to block all of their exits as best as you can.

I do agree some better examples should be listed b/c of clarification as to what maybe should be reported to TWI or even what we should be thinking TWI should be handling from the beginning. But I do understand that they have other things that are more important to work on and are not looking to be some evil force out there to crush your fun.

[Ghost Hardware]

Originally posted by MajorLag <∞>:

If it really only happened to two people, why would you even attempt to do something that can be misconstrued this much?

I'm wondering this too. If its only going to be used in very rare cases for people who deserve it, fair enough. But the EULA reads like you will be banning people on first offence and first sight for breaking the rules.

[Ghost Hardware]

Originally posted by Ferdinand:

I am not going to drink your freaking SJW koolaid, so much for humanity progress.

I wouldnt also be surprised if this post gets deleted because I just triggered you which is just as bad as PTSD suffered by US soldiers.

Video games are serious business