Parry mechanics in KF2 - Rant mode activated

[Psilo]

The most rewarding thing in KF2, in my opinion, is parrying attacks from large zeds. During boss waves I usualy buy a pulverizer (as ANY class...) to block patty's attacks. It feels so satisfying and highlights one's skill at the game.

Now this awesome mechanic is RUINED by 4 sub-mechanics of parrying, which is a f*king shame:

1) Hans's attacks are unparryable and unblockabe, thus making it so the only way to survive his cheap cheese "I outrun you and claw you to death" attacks is to have a dedicated medic pumping you full of juice. This has extremely low skill involved, and allowing players to parry han's attack would make it so we have an alternate way to survive this low counterplay situation with SKILL, not medics.

2) Parry %damage reduction is EQUAL to block %damage reduction... What!? I dug up in the patch notes to find exactly how my favorite mechanic worked and here are the official stats:

-We felt that blocking and parring was to OP due to taking almost no damage when you do so, so we tuned this down
Pulverizer
Explosive radius reduced to 225 (was 300)
Parry mitigation blocks 40% damage (was90%)
Block Mitigation blocks 40% (was 50%)
Crovel
Parry mitigation blocks 30% damage (was100%)
Block Mitigation blocks 30% (was 50%)
knife
Parry mitigation blocks 20% damage (was 30%)
Block Mitigation blocks 20% (was 50%)
Zweihander
Parry mitigation blocks 40% damage (was100%))
Block Mitigation blocks 40% (was 50%)
Katana
Parry mitigation blocks 30% damage (was100%))
Block Mitigation blocks 30% (was 50%)
Eviserator
Parry mitigation blocks 50% damage (was90%))
Block Mitigation blocks 50% (was 50%)
Blade pickup radius 250 (was 200)
blade pickup height 100 (was 50)
increased ammo pickup amount to 50%

As you can see, the ONLY advantage you get from parrying is that it briefly stuns the attacking zed. But, ofc that doesn't work on large zeds, so there's ZERO advantage to parrying as it stands comapred to blocking. Logic?

3) Not all weapons are able to block all attacks. Yeah, pulling out your knife and trying to block an incoming fleshpound's attack might sound like a good idea, but it effectively doesnt do jack ; Only higher tier weapons such as pulv and zweihander can do that. Hell, the knife cant even parry a gorefast's blade.
But imagine this mechanic was not a thing. There would now be extremely skill based alternative to low counterplay attacks such as Fleshpound's infinite rage, hans BS cheese melee chasing and patriarch's shoulder slam attack.

4) Parry damage reduction is a absolute joke. Yeah, i said it. It sucks. Pulling off a parry requires timing and skill, and i'm rewarded with a 40% damage reduction. Great! i can now proceed to die because I'm at half health already.
I believe that the block % dmg reduction is fine, but parry should have a wayyy higher mitigation. knife could be 20% block and 40% on parry, and pulverizer could be 40% block and 70% on parry. That makes so much more sense then the values provided on point 2).

TL;DR Parry sucks but is awesome. Make parry great again.

- From a guy who plays this game too much.

[Undefined]

Parrying was part of what made me fall in love with KF2 back in v1008.

And I don't understand why they got rid of it. If the answer was because it was OP, then get rid of all the other OP like stuns/freeze on demand, RPGs killing SCs by launching it into their head at close range, Railgun one-shotting FPs/SCs, and all the other ridiculous stuff in the game.

v1008 was the best KF2 and I know many players who stopped playing because the game became EZ-mode over time.

[Mem]

Hi there! As a practicing berz i think i can add my 2 cents.

Originally posted by Retro050:

1) Hans's attacks are unparryable and unblockabe,

Well i think i still getting damage reduction when i parry hans. And visual effect of parrying hans (btum) is also in place. Remember, the red glowing attack of sc or fp in theory unparryble, in practice it means that zed will not get stumbled upon succesfull parry. U will get damage reduction though. And remember, parry is not only about damage, on successful parry u also get pushed back from zed, that is also very handy.

Originally posted by Retro050:

2) Parry %damage reduction is EQUAL to block %damage reduction... What!? I dug up in the patch notes to find exactly how my favorite mechanic worked and here are the official stats:

I think u got wrong reference here, i mean u posting quote from very old update, i belive it is not how things work now, also KF2 stats sheet says opposite, for example, for pulverizer Block (damage multiplier) is 0.5, Parry (damage multiplier) is 0.4, that means 50% and 60% reduction.

I think u better refer to KF2 stats sheet, i belive it has actual info)

Originally posted by Retro050:

3) Not all weapons are able to block all attacks.

It was how it worked in early versions, and belive me, it is way overpowered. I am glad they removed it.

Originally posted by Retro050:

Pulling off a parry requires timing and skill, and i'm rewarded with a 40% damage reduction. Great! i can now proceed to die because I'm at half health already.

Its good. When parry blocked 90% of damage it was just insane. U could just forget about flashpunds being a threat. Also u know, parry is not very difficult really. Parring flashpound is a piece of cake. Parring sc is harder, since it got different combos, and i personally prefer safest hit-and-run tactic for killing sc. For parring sc u also need a of space, and dont forget, the main threat is not sc of fp, but smaller swarming zeds coming with them. In most cases on high difficulties u will just stand and not let sc break your team formation.

That i am saying is that berz is very powerful now and current parry damage reduction is more than enough. U can take the parry perk if u want, though i advice against it.

[Psilo]

Originally posted by Mem:

Hi there! As a practicing berz i think i can add my 2 cents.

Originally posted by Retro050:

1) Hans's attacks are unparryable and unblockabe,

Well i think i still getting damage reduction when i parry hans. And visual effect of parrying hans (btum) is also in place. Remember, the red glowing attack of sc or fp in theory unparryble, in practice it means that zed will not get stumbled upon succesfull parry. U will get damage reduction though. And remember, parry is not only about damage, on successful parry u also get pushed back from zed, that is also very handy.

Originally posted by Retro050:

2) Parry %damage reduction is EQUAL to block %damage reduction... What!? I dug up in the patch notes to find exactly how my favorite mechanic worked and here are the official stats:

I think u got wrong reference here, i mean u posting quote from very old update, i belive it is not how things work now, also KF2 stats sheet says opposite, for example, for pulverizer Block (damage multiplier) is 0.5, Parry (damage multiplier) is 0.4, that means 50% and 60% reduction.

I think u better refer to KF2 stats sheet, i belive it has actual info)

Originally posted by Retro050:

3) Not all weapons are able to block all attacks.

It was how it worked in early versions, and belive me, it is way overpowered. I am glad they removed it.

Originally posted by Retro050:

Pulling off a parry requires timing and skill, and i'm rewarded with a 40% damage reduction. Great! i can now proceed to die because I'm at half health already.

Its good. When parry blocked 90% of damage it was just insane. U could just forget about flashpunds being a threat. Also u know, parry is not very difficult really. Parring flashpound is a piece of cake. Parring sc is harder, since it got different combos, and i personally prefer safest hit-and-run tactic for killing sc. For parring sc u also need a of space, and dont forget, the main threat is not sc of fp, but smaller swarming zeds coming with them. In most cases on high difficulties u will just stand and not let sc break your team formation.

That i am saying is that berz is very powerful now and current parry damage reduction is more than enough. U can take the parry perk if u want, though i advice against it.

Very insightful comment, thanks. regarding unparryable attacks, i did also FEEL like the damage reduction was still applying on han's attacks, yet the in-game info said otherwise so i just took it as a fact.

I also didn't know about weapon spreadsheets, thanks for that. I'll look that up next time instead.

I still feel like the damage reduction on parrying is not rewarding enough, to a point where the only class who can afford to parry are zerker and medic because of their insane survivability.

[HelhiganM]

yes makes sense would read again

[Kotory]

U have wrong info. Parry gives u more damage mitigation, although i agree with u on part - it should be more rewarding. 10% extra mitigation is bullsh!t cuz if u failed u will get 100% right in the face.
Stumble is the only reason u should perform parry right now.
My personal opinion - 50% mitigation on block and 60 % on parry should be transformed into 40% on block and 70% on parry. Extra 30% already valuable bonus.

[NovaGenetics]

Parry actually does stun large Zeds, I've stunned a Scrake many times as Zerker. FP's on the other hand are quick to recover, but it does stun them if only for a small fraction of time. (I'm a 22 Zerker, so don't go saying I'm stupid or w/e)

[Sikobae]

Originally posted by Retro050:

4) Parry damage reduction is a absolute joke. Yeah, i said it. It sucks. Pulling off a parry requires timing and skill, and i'm rewarded with a 40% damage reduction.

You're an idiot. You also get an ADDITIONAL 40% from the Parry skill. On top of that, being a Level 25 Zerker gives you a permanent 15% DR. Assuming Zerk DR is additive, you're working with a whopping 95% with a Zwie-Parry. You can survive boss attacks that could 1 or 2-shot every other class.

[Earth Burger®Fishless Sandwich™]

Those notes in the OP are outdated and parrying and blocking have had better mitigation stats for most weapons since then. Because of the "parry strength" and "parry resistance" stats only weapons of tier 2 and greater, or katana and above, can stumble scrakes, fleshpounds, and bosses on a successful parry.

While it is true that those previously mentioned specimens can use attacks that are resistant to parrying, they are not unblockable. Damage mitigation of both parrying and blocking still applies but the specimen simply won't be stumbled while using those attacks.

Still, I think parrying could be better rewarded off perk. According to the KF stats spreadsheet, and I personally find these values at least plausible, parry and block mitigation values are as follows:

Knives:
x0.2 Parry
x0.2 Block

Crovel:
x0.5 Parry
x0.6 Block

Katana:
x0.5 Parry
x0.6 Block

Pulverizer:
x0.4 Parry
x0.5 Block

Zweihander:
x0.4 Parry
x0.6 Block

Eviscerator:
x0.3 Parry
x0.4 Block

It may not be extremely difficult, but parrying still takes a bit of practice and I think it could be more rewarding to at least the tier 3 weapons. That's just me, though. I'd like to see a more skill-indexed Berserker perk and I think it's a good place to start.

[Kotory]

Originally posted by Sergeant Shazbot the Sandraker:

It may not be extremely difficult, but parrying still takes a bit of practice and I think it could be more rewarding to at least the tier 3 weapons. That's just me, though. I'd like to see a more skill-indexed Berserker perk and I think it's a good place to start.

Agree.
They should make differences between "parry" and "block" more significant.
10% its laughable. Even 20% in case of zwei is bullsh!t

1 - Regualr block should be nerfed, down to 30 - 40% - holding button isn't "skill"
2 - parry should be buffed up to 70 -75% - right timing and knowledge of different zeds movements, already requires some skill.

[Psilo]

Originally posted by Sikobae:

Originally posted by Retro050:

4) Parry damage reduction is a absolute joke. Yeah, i said it. It sucks. Pulling off a parry requires timing and skill, and i'm rewarded with a 40% damage reduction.

You're an idiot. You also get an ADDITIONAL 40% from the Parry skill. On top of that, being a Level 25 Zerker gives you a permanent 15% DR. Assuming Zerk DR is additive, you're working with a whopping 95% with a Zwie-Parry. You can survive boss attacks that could 1 or 2-shot every other class.

Firts off I prefer talking to people who don't call others idiots out of the blue. This being said, my post was about parrying on classes that AREN'T berserker, as an alternative to NEEDING a medic on boss waves.
So no, you're not gonna get 95% parry strenght on gunslinger or demo. On top of that, the parry perk on zerker is flat out inferior to the 20% damage reduction boost perk, no matter what playstyle you're going for, so don't even bring it up :)

-Retro

[Vandal Savant]

Maybe it's some early balancing so the defensive nature of the Mace & Shield is more pronounced compared to other melee weapons?

[Psilo]

Originally posted by Vandal Savant:

Maybe it's some early balancing so the defensive nature of the Mace & Shield is more pronounced compared to other melee weapons?

i'd be fine with that. I personally would love to see stand alone shield that could be usable with smgs and handguns. That'd be absolutely sick. maybe a parry buckler like in dark souls 2, for parry lovers? :)

[Earth Burger®Fishless Sandwich™]

Originally posted by Τhe Rolling Christmas Tree:

I think when Tripwire was balancing the parry mechanic they noticed how almost nobody played the berserker because every player that parries on any perk is just as effective as a tank berserker.

If any other perk can tank, what would be the point of a berserker? That's how parry got nerfed so heavily, it's so that berserker has a niche that no other perks have.

That's very true. The Parry perk skill is a step in the right direction for setting parrying for the Berserker apart from the rest. Parrying off-perk is fine.

[Nomy]

The data is kinda off, but i agree that there is lack of incentives to parry when blocking is almost as good.

[Redic]

I have to fully agree with you OP, although those numbers are slightly outdated, you make a good point