A lack of Tanks, or why Berserker is Core Meta

[Zero Taicho]

Berserker's a good perk, we can all agree on that right? Whether you like the playstyle or not, having a Berserker on your team is a relieving feeling. This is, in my opinion, mostly due to his ability to stall bigger zeds in perpetuity. He's a tank, and the only one in a roster of 10 perks.

This isn't exactly good.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not asking to nerf Berserker. I'm asking for at least one more perk to become a viable tank on par or at least within the ballpark of the melee boi. Some of the perks have aspirations towards tankiness here or there with a skill or a passive, but none of them can dream of coming halfway close to the mark. I'm just gonna put this here, but there's a difference between being TANKY and being A TANK. Being able to take a hit is different from actively trying to get hit so others don't have to.

So who should it be?

Right off the bat Survivalist, Demo, Medic, Sharpshooter, and Gunslinger are out. Berserker too, seeing as he's the guy we're comparing to as the definitive tank.
Survivalist is in a limbo flux state, so we can't really do anything there.
Demolitions is a power class, giving him tanking would be muddled.
Medic had his tanking powers removed and given to SWAT in the move from KF1. He's also the Tank's primary buddy, so making him the tank as well could be overloaded.
Sharpshooter is the same as Demo, high power shouldn't be too tanky.
Gunslinger is the kiter, a tanky kiter is an unkillable man.

This leaves Firebug, Support, Commando, and SWAT. Personally I'm hesitant to give any more power to Commando do to his powerful crossection of perk weapons, so lets shelve him for now.

Leftside SWAT has inherantly high armor, like the Medic of KF1. Just like Medic, however, he crumbles once the armor fades and has no way of getting that power back until the next wave. He's less a full-bred tank, more a 'oh god don't die' fellow who can shield you with his body a few times. If he had some form of regenerating armor as opposed to just getting more, he might be able to combine that with his Heavy Armor to tank choice hits throughout a wave, like a FP's rages, while still surviving to the end of it. Because of the nature of Heavy Armor's no-leak however, this could also overtune him and make him too defensive. Perhaps instead of a steady armor trickle like Berserker's HP Skirmisher, he could get a burst of armor whenever he heals himself, or a small hunk of armor every ten seconds or so instead of a point every second.

Support is a short range fella, shotguns and penetration shots being his forte. Fortitude says that TWI thought he could do something tanky once upon a time, but 50% more HP doesn't really do much for someone. I've had my own ideas about giving him a riot shield/riot shotgun pair, but I won't continue to harp on that. Increased base armor might help as well; not Heavy Armor, but just a bit more sturdiness in the face of a wave. I honestly feel like Support in general just needs a buff, cards on the table here. An alternate approach could be allowing Support to repair other's armor with his enhanced Welder, similar to how Medic used to be able to do so with his healing. This wouldn't so much as create a new tank as it would allow anyone to take the role of tank temporarily with the knowledge that the Support could return their Armor investment.

Firebug is similar to Support. Short range, decent CC, only real difference is his lack of a skill explicitly telling me TWI expected him to get hurt. He could fulfill the role of a tanky frontliner quite well, to a point, but he doesn't really have what the others do when it comes to tanking; an answer to a raging big zed, the thing you are probably taking for your team. No flashbang, no block, no doublebarrel blast. Heatwave can only keep you safe for a couple seconds before that chainsaw comes home.

What do y'all think? Would another tank be a good idea? If so, who and how? If not, why?

EDIT: Added alternative Support repair concept.

[m550]

Make SWAT like a tanky perk besides Zerk.(at least hp buff or give it a jaggernaut armor that comes from COD MW2/3 that might cost movement speed)

Since SWAT are supposed to be doing $hiety job with police brutailty as using riot shield wrecking mobs.

Also tasting them for the lulz.

[supersand]

Firebug can tank a little bit with 30% slow from ground fire and fire panic, but its more of a kite then tanking

but this would lead to the same issue with Gunslinger since firebug is a class that can kite

SWAT class is probably the best option outside of a survivalist rework

[ShroudedInLight]

SWAT and Sharp-shooter are already off-tanks thanks to their grenades, these are consumables but 5 grenades lets you handle 5 scrakes. Fleshpounds are iffier kills, and that is where Demos can handle them thanks to their grenades and explosives.

The biggest issue here is that all of those are consumable resources, and each player only gets 5 of them. Berserker has the advantage of blocking being a unlimited resource. However, the berserker still needs armor and health to sustain blocks and parries (even if the zerker is landing his parries 66% of the time hes still losing HP the other 3rd).

This limits the zerkers tanking to his HP pool, which can be made effectively limitless with a pocket medic.

I believe Firebug would make a good tank, and would love to see 1/2 of the firebug perks become tank perks while the other half are damage/cc perks.

[screeno42]

The firebug actually does have a response to raging big zeds in the MWG's altfire, but it does take some timing practice to maintain consistency. If you can get it down though, you can push back raging FPs and completely knock over scrakes.

I've always liked firebug as an alternative tank; specifically, a "crowd control tank." It's a version of the archetype I've only really seen in MOBAs and some RPGs, but the general idea is instead of directly taking damage for their teammates, a cc tank prevents the attacks from flying in the first place via abilities that apply stun, silence, or fear. In firebug, you have the groundfire skill's slow, heatwave's stumble, and the oft hated firepanic(it may make the zeds harder to shoot, but it also keeps them from attacking).
I feel all that firebug really needs to be a viable alternative to zerker is some tweak to panic so that it's easier for other perks to capitalize on.

Swat could also easily be worked into a tank thanks to it's preexisting skills, the potential for a riot shield with gun weapon, and its arsenal's naturally high stumble power.

[Dr.Xance]

SWAT is the one that need to be tankier as zerker, He just need more armor and armor regen

[GnomeDompski]

lol. survivalist can run circles around big zeds to keep them off the team and can make good use of melee weapons, including blocking. Damage resistance helps there along with the med nades. Berzerker is in a league of its own, which is clear as it is still pretty much OP after getting a hard nerf, but others can to an extent play the role if done carefully. Firebug is another that can to an extent play the role, but it just doesn't feel right. A firebug holding off a big zed with heatwave is like eating an old slim jim off the floor while starving. You won't be hungry but there is a lot of things wrong with the scene.

[Big Stick Energy]

SWAT is the more obvious choice...but, unfortunately, he's relegated chiefly to being a bullet-hose. No riot-shield for our boi.

[The Munchies]

zerker already established the role of tank, also you're telling me you never went survivalist with a pulverizer? I can't ♥♥♥♥♥ with you no more

Edit: The 3 main frontliners are zerker, firebug and support-each offering their own style of being in the front against large zeds. FB has cc and can kite if done correctly. Support has huge dps and stumble power that allows it to take down large zeds with decent aim (how u gon miss shotgun close range?). Zerker is the hack and slash overpowered guy on drugs that facetanks and shakes it off

[Zero Taicho]

Originally posted by screeno42:

The firebug actually does have a response to raging big zeds in the MWG's altfire, but it does take some timing practice to maintain consistency. If you can get it down though, you can push back raging FPs and completely knock over scrakes.

I've always liked firebug as an alternative tank; specifically, a "crowd control tank." It's a version of the archetype I've only really seen in MOBAs and some RPGs, but the general idea is instead of directly taking damage for their teammates, a cc tank prevents the attacks from flying in the first place via abilities that apply stun, silence, or fear. In firebug, you have the groundfire skill's slow, heatwave's stumble, and the oft hated firepanic(it may make the zeds harder to shoot, but it also keeps them from attacking).
I feel all that firebug really needs to be a viable alternative to zerker is some tweak to panic so that it's easier for other perks to capitalize on.

Swat could also easily be worked into a tank thanks to it's preexisting skills, the potential for a riot shield with gun weapon, and its arsenal's naturally high stumble power.

I know of the idea of CC tanking, Warframe makes it fairly viable across the board. I assumed that it wasn't going to work in KF2 due to the hardwired hard CC limit (IIRC a Zed cannot be hard CC'd within 5 seconds of being hard CC'd), but the MWG is a unique case with the 'not CC' of its pushback. Maybe if you could charge the alt-fire so it cost less ammo(clicking altfire cost the same as it does now, holding has it charge for a cheaper shot with the same power), letting you maintain your supply longer it would be on-par with Zerker.

[Zero Taicho]

Originally posted by GnomeDompski:

lol. survivalist can run circles around big zeds to keep them off the team and can make good use of melee weapons, including blocking. Damage resistance helps there along with the med nades. Berzerker is in a league of its own, which is clear as it is still pretty much OP after getting a hard nerf, but others can to an extent play the role if done carefully. Firebug is another that can to an extent play the role, but it just doesn't feel right. A firebug holding off a big zed with heatwave is like eating an old slim jim off the floor while starving. You won't be hungry but there is a lot of things wrong with the scene.

I agree that Survivalist has definately got an edge when it comes to being tanky, but that's part of why I made the distinction between TANKY and TANK. He's got heavy armor and global DR, but no way to keep his HP up once the armor fades so he ends up suffering just like SWAT does. I also don't feel comfortable talking about changes to Survy due to the urban legend of rework that hangs over him, so I'd rather focus on the 9 'full' perks until he's revealed.

[Fumo Bnnuy n Frends]

Originally posted by Mister Bubbles:

SWAT is the more obvious choice...but, unfortunately, he's relegated chiefly to being a bullet-hose. No riot-shield for our boi.

one can pray
maybe rework too after survivalist gets his.

[Stellifera]

So many players use Skirmisher... I use dreadnaught.

[Zero Taicho]

Originally posted by JellyDoro:

So many players use Skirmisher... I use dreadnaught.

There's a very good reason for that. Having a higher max HP is only as good as your method of keeping it full. Having that extra 75 isn't terrible when you are backed up by a Medic, but the regeneration and speed from Skirmisher is usually more effective survivability. Combine that with the stock-20 self-heal and the way movement speed is effected by current% HP and having more HP can actually be a detriment to your mobility.

[Stellifera]

Originally posted by Zero Taicho:

Originally posted by JellyDoro:

So many players use Skirmisher... I use dreadnaught.

There's a very good reason for that. Having a higher max HP is only as good as your method of keeping it full. Having that extra 75 isn't terrible when you are backed up by a Medic, but the regeneration and speed from Skirmisher is usually more effective survivability. Combine that with the stock-20 self-heal and the way movement speed is effected by current% HP and having more HP can actually be a detriment to your mobility.

I do always become zerker with dreadnaught when medic is around on Suicidal and HoE. It makes me out-live* a skirmisher. Dreadnaught is also good with vampire + parry.

[GnomeDompski]

Originally posted by Zero Taicho:

I agree that Survivalist has definately got an edge when it comes to being tanky, but that's part of why I made the distinction between TANKY and TANK. He's got heavy armor and global DR, but no way to keep his HP up once the armor fades so he ends up suffering just like SWAT does. I also don't feel comfortable talking about changes to Survy due to the urban legend of rework that hangs over him, so I'd rather focus on the 9 'full' perks until he's revealed.

True, even with damage resistance he can't stand toe to toe with the big ones for long after armour is stripped, but they can still handle scrakes by pulling agro (scrakes can't catch up) and selfish use of med grenades can help extend a survivalists usefullness on the frontlines. Throwing down a nade where you plan to get pushed back to can give the team enough time to kill a zed while you block. Pretty useful in a pinch.

Honestly, while something to rival the zerkers role as a tank would be nice, I don't see them ever giving a perk what it would need. That being exactly what you stated when you talked about regenerative points. Zerker really got that because he is in their face to use most of his weapons, but everyone has good range. I guess we will see if survivalist gets something similar when his rework comes out sometime after they perfect VS mode :p