Reload cancelling was FUN! and a rant

[DrunkBunny94]

Reload cancelling seems to be a topic that the community is sort of split on.

Reload cancelling has been in KF2 since EA - it has never been game breaking it was risk vs reward and i find myself falling clearly into the category of people that like reload cancelling and will miss it.

First of all yes technically it was a bug and yes technically it was an expliot to use it in this way but guess what - loads of mechanics are spawned like this just look at rocket jumping, or warp speed bunny hopping, theres blocking while reviving in vermintide, the spy was born out of a glitch that had a players name in the wrong teams colour. These are all fun mechanics that were spawned out of bugs that were FUN and that developers left in their game and even included in future instalments.

In fact TWI accidentally implimented a feature that some games actually implimented like gears of war - you want to know why games like GoA went out of their way to impliment such a feature? BECAUSE ITS FUN. In GoA action reloads was a mini game that wasnt exactly very hard but if you messed it up there was a punishment - in GoA you stopped moving for like the rest of the reload animation and it was increased. The risk/reward combined with the fluidity of the gameplay is what makes this seemingly simple mechanic.

With the recent removal of reload cancelling (until theres a macro or mod made for it) playing without reload cancelling actually made me feel bored - its basically 2 seconds that i just zone out and honestly is makes some of the guns feel clunky something that i never noticed before.

The reason i will miss reload cancelling more than any stat or percentage is simply that it was fun, and it felt rewarding - pulling it off in the last 0.0001 second because you knew you could make it (and not need to swap weapons) just made holding those games feel so much more epic, like you earnt them.
Gameplay wise it let you pull off combos far more smoothly and elegantly - for example the DBS (pre beta) would decap a SC in 2 alt fires with the 1st shot being a 100% stumble - instead of running up point blank and firing - backing off while the SC stumbles and then firing again when you are ready you could run up and get the shot off just as the stumble was finishing which felt and looked amazing - the downside was if you ♥♥♥♥ up the reload or miss your second shot you are taking a hit. You by no means needed reload cancelling to do this but it was far more impressive with reload cancelling.

Which makes me wonder why something like this was removed in the first place. TWI have openly said that reload cancelling was not something on their radar for fixing as it wasnt game breaking - and the only reason for the change last summer and in the 1st beta was because of the zerker changes. This has been targeted for removal and i would like to know why.
Was there a change of opinion? why was this problem fixed when there are other far more prevelent game breaking problems?

and time for the rant:

A lot of questions like this are coming up with this beta and it seems although TWI arent listening to what players want and its just frustrating - the beta is supposed to be for people voice concerns and have them fixed, instead they are being voiced and it seems like TWI are simply ignoring this feedback or are actively working against it.
>EDAR's could be a really cool enemy but they are spongy >make them less spongy and have a rewarding place to shoot them but keep them deadly >TWI gives them more HP and less armor make their weak spot their body which also just got more HP...
>Hemo needs to debuff zeds not damage them >TWI buffs damage >we said make it a debuff weapon >TWI nerfs damage.....
>you were informed the mac10 does shotgun damage back in the Xmas beta and it still does shotgun damage - the exact lines of code was even shown to you in discord why is this not fixed?
>the railgun was OP before before the beta because it trivialised large zeds - now the SS gets another one of these weapons thats even stronger (putting the railgun in a weird and useless spot) and the support gets one in the form of the doomstick which ment the DBS had to get nerfed even though it was one of the more fun and versatile weapons in the game.
>upgrading weapon damage is prolly a bad idea since thresholds are what make guns good/bad/unique >TWI makes upgrade system only effects damage and healing.
So now every gun is viable for the end game - exept now thats not really case as every gun needs to perform similarly some classes like gunslinger,swat,mando all feel VERY watered down and same-y (more so than before) and to top it off ofc there are still going to be guns that out perform each other so the game hasnt gotten more versatile its just more complicated as the number of weapons has been artificially increased by at least 3 times.... like why not just pick a skin for your T1/2/3/4 guns like oh i want the L85 to be T4 and cost 1500 and the scar be T2 and cost 650 and then just fix the stats to those price points otherwise a best gun will be found and a 2nd best will be found and then bam new meta - back how things were with no more variety (possibly even less variety since weapons weigh more once upgraded you cant carry as many).

I know people like to think that people who play CD or harder than HoE mods all hate themselves and dont like fun and are a bunch of elitist ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ but this couldnt be further from the truth.
The difficulty combined with the co-ordination and players skill everything being placed on a knifes edge - the adrenaline you get when you are on that edge so close to failure yet so close to success when you pull though at the very end and clutch things... is what makes the game fun, this is what i enjoy. Its like every match its the build up to that 1 final scene every movie has where the good guys win against all odds and its amazing.
Seeing TWI turn game balance on its head, add spongy enemies and now start to remove fun mechanics this is ultimatly going to push people away. Its only a matter of time until people i know stop patching and modding things because its not worth the effort and then (where will you get ideas *cough*skip trader button*cough*) more people will leave.
//rant over

[Mewo]

Nein

[CougarMagnum]

Originally posted by DrunkBunny94:

With the recent removal of reload cancelling (until theres a macro or mod made for it) playing without reload cancelling actually made me feel bored - its basically 2 seconds that i just zone out and honestly is makes some of the guns feel clunky something that i never noticed before.

Do you have the attention span of a goldfish? Oh wait, you relied on animation exploits.

[Barely Drenched]

such tl;dr, very wow

[DrunkBunny94]

Originally posted by CougarMagnum:

Originally posted by DrunkBunny94:

With the recent removal of reload cancelling (until theres a macro or mod made for it) playing without reload cancelling actually made me feel bored - its basically 2 seconds that i just zone out and honestly is makes some of the guns feel clunky something that i never noticed before.

Do you have the attention span of a goldfish? Oh wait, you relied on animation exploits.

"First of all yes technically it was a bug and yes technically it was an expliot to use it in this way but guess what - loads of mechanics are spawned like this just look at rocket jumping, or warp speed bunny hopping, theres blocking while reviving in vermintide, the spy was born out of a glitch that had a players name in the wrong teams colour. These are all fun mechanics that were spawned out of bugs that were FUN and that developers left in their game and even included in future instalments."

holy ♥♥♥♥ you accuse me of having a short attension span yet you didnt real THE FIRST point i mentioned. how ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ ironic.

Thats a big ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ LUL if i ever saw one.

[DrunkBunny94]

Originally posted by Barely Drenched:

such tl;dr, very wow :bigdump:

I have a lot of free time now...
Speaking of - anyone know any other co-op AI games that are any good? i dont really wanna go back to KF1 or L4D2...
GTFO the game looks pretty decent though, Dauntless is fun but it and MHW dont scratch the same itch KF2 did.

[[MM] Cpt_Mustard]

There was simply just something satisfying to reload cancel, it's not like it actually affected your gameplay very much, it's only 0.8 less seconds of reload time

Like seriously, i don't get what's so big of a deal, it had no reason to exist and if majority wants to bug back, there is a high possibility that TWI will bring it back, you just gotta gather people to agree.... hold on, scratch that, it's already happening

It'll just take 3 months to bring it back, because Gorefiend was broken on beta aswell and he remained broken til Summer Sideshow

[Holy Crap]

Originally posted by CougarMagnum:

Originally posted by DrunkBunny94:

With the recent removal of reload cancelling (until theres a macro or mod made for it) playing without reload cancelling actually made me feel bored - its basically 2 seconds that i just zone out and honestly is makes some of the guns feel clunky something that i never noticed before.

Do you have the attention span of a goldfish? Oh wait, you relied on animation exploits.

That's actually wrong as well as rude for no reason. If you can pull off a reload cancelled support boomstick combo versus an FP or SC, which is relatively hard to do, then you most certainly can kill both big zeds with intended mechanics, a.k.a. no reload cancel.

Killing a Scrake with a boomstick as a support is trivial. You run up to him as close as you can, you attack him before he starts the attack, move back and repeat, two shots and he's dead. It's pretty mind-numbing and every support knows this basically. The 2-reload-cancelled HS combo was infinitely harder to do and it did provide an advantage, it allowed you to kill the SC much faster, but at the cost of being a lot more risky and taking a lot of practice to do it consistently. One small mistake on your reload cancel or when predicting the SC's animation would lead to you getting some severe damage and possibly getting killed.

So no, players that used reload cancel did not depend on it to be good players. They could do it consistently and they could perform better than their counterparts at killing big zeds, at the cost of having a riskier gameplay style and having to practice to master the techniques.

[∴ Snake ∴]

Originally posted by DrunkBunny94:

Reload cancelling has been in KF2 since EA - it has never been game breaking it was risk vs reward and i find myself falling clearly into the category of people that like reload cancelling and will miss it.

Risk vs reward? There is no risk or reward. You can master reload cancelling in like five minutes, and cancelling the reload makes no difference unless you're dual wielding.

Originally posted by DrunkBunny94:

In fact TWI accidentally implimented a feature that some games actually implimented like gears of war - you want to know why games like GoA went out of their way to impliment such a feature? BECAUSE ITS FUN. In GoA action reloads was a mini game that wasnt exactly very hard but if you messed it up there was a punishment - in GoA you stopped moving for like the rest of the reload animation and it was increased. The risk/reward combined with the fluidity of the gameplay is what makes this seemingly simple mechanic.

First of all, it's GoW (Gears of War), not GoA. Second, what the ♥♥♥♥ are you talking about? If you can provide a source where it says that Active Reload was added because it was fun, then I'd appreciate it.

Also, the punishment was that your gun would jam and you wouldn't be able to fight back until un-jamming process was complete. You could still roll and run while the animation played out.

[Holy Crap]

Originally posted by ∴ Snake ∴:

Risk vs reward? There is no risk or reward. You can master reload cancelling in like five minutes, and cancelling the reload makes no difference unless you're dual wielding.

The basic reload cancel technique (Hold M1 + Bash) is easy to do. The one he's referring to is the Boomstick reload cancel, which itself is not that hard, but actually using it correctly in combos requires quite a bit of practice. That's where the high risk-high reward gameplay comes in. You could kill a Scrake or Fleshpound very quickly using only the Boomstick, but it required good coordination, aim and animation memorization. One insignificant mistake and you could easily die.

[Holy Crap]

The Boomstick reload cancel also allowed a cool movement mechanic, where you could chain several jumpshots with reload cancel, increasing the Support's mobility and survivability at the cost of spending expensive and not abundant ammo, as well as having the correct coordination.

[DrunkBunny94]

Originally posted by ∴ Snake ∴:

Originally posted by DrunkBunny94:

Reload cancelling has been in KF2 since EA - it has never been game breaking it was risk vs reward and i find myself falling clearly into the category of people that like reload cancelling and will miss it.

Risk vs reward? There is no risk or reward. You can master reload cancelling in like five minutes, and cancelling the reload makes no difference unless you're dual wielding.

Originally posted by DrunkBunny94:

In fact TWI accidentally implimented a feature that some games actually implimented like gears of war - you want to know why games like GoA went out of their way to impliment such a feature? BECAUSE ITS FUN. In GoA action reloads was a mini game that wasnt exactly very hard but if you messed it up there was a punishment - in GoA you stopped moving for like the rest of the reload animation and it was increased. The risk/reward combined with the fluidity of the gameplay is what makes this seemingly simple mechanic.

First of all, it's GoW (Gears of War), not GoA. Second, what the ♥♥♥♥ are you talking about? If you can provide a source where it says that Active Reload was added because it was fun, then I'd appreciate it.

Also, the punishment was that your gun would jam and you wouldn't be able to fight back until un-jamming process was complete. You could still roll and run while the animation played out.

There are other games with this mechanic, dauntless the hammer shotgun the ONLY reload is a minigame like the GoW one and if you fail it you get a long reload and remain stationary and get ♥♥♥♥♥♥ low damage ammo and you cant reload until you use it all...

Also most features are added to enhance the players experience and for them to enjoy themselves. Risk and reward go hand in hand, high risk high reward mechanics are usually prefered as they are satisfying to pull off. low risk high reward are are considered OP which can get boring / stale (look at railgun/M99) and high risk low reward and considered UP and because of the low reward dont feel as satisfying to use an example of this would be most survivalist combos.

The risk of reload cancelling (hold M1 quickly tap bash to fire 1 round) was if you do it too early you ♥♥♥♥ up and have to reload again which means you spend more time reloading. The reward was shortening your reload time as well as feeling increadibly fluid and natural - you see ammo in your ammo counter and you can shoot no waiting to shoot the ammo in your ammo counter...

Tbh maybe it was too strong and maybe there should have been a harsher penalty for ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ it up but thats no reason to remove it. Especially if we are talking about reload cancelling from a balance perspective - why remove it when you are adding 2 stupidly OP insta killing guns in the same patch as well as an upgrade system that flips balance on its head? like why suddenly give a ♥♥♥♥ about being able to reload your pistols 1 second faster?
idk it leaves a bad taste in a lot of the CD communities mouthes.

[Dark Savior]

Reload cancel was an exploit and did not require much skill.
Reload cancel eliminated any risk involved when taking out big zeds.
I am happy it was removed, but also disappointed.

[Holy Crap]

Originally posted by Dark Savior:

Reload cancel was an exploit and did not require much skill.
Reload cancel eliminated any risk involved when taking out big zeds.
I am happy it was removed, but also disappointed.

Not really. Actually, reload cancel encouraged a more high risk playstyle, where a quick big zed kill was the reward. Examples of this are a whole array of Support Boomstick combos, reload cancelled hipfire Railgun shots on Fleshpounds, a multitude of RPG-7 + C4 combos, as well as Commando, SWAT and Medic emergency combos against Fleshpounds.

As you can see, these do involve a lot of risks, even minor mistakes could mean having several raged big zeds running around and causing utter chaos. It did not eliminate any risk, they gave you a tool to deal with big zeds if you practiced enough and didn't screw up.

The mechanic itself is not difficult to do, but the combos that involved its use were.

[󠀡]

Originally posted by CougarMagnum:

Originally posted by DrunkBunny94:

With the recent removal of reload cancelling (until theres a macro or mod made for it) playing without reload cancelling actually made me feel bored - its basically 2 seconds that i just zone out and honestly is makes some of the guns feel clunky something that i never noticed before.

Do you have the attention span of a goldfish? Oh wait, you relied on animation exploits.

It was considered to be an intended mechanic, stated several times by one of the devs far back. It's just now recently that they changed their mind completely about it, since the devs can't make up their damn mind about anything. (Like the hemogoblin getting a damage increase then a damage decrease, but that's for another topic). So the only one with the attention span of a goldfish are you.

[󠀡]

Originally posted by Krim Son:

There was simply just something satisfying to reload cancel, it's not like it actually affected your gameplay very much, it's only 0.8 less seconds of reload time

Like seriously, i don't get what's so big of a deal, it had no reason to exist and if majority wants to bug back, there is a high possibility that TWI will bring it back, you just gotta gather people to agree.... hold on, scratch that, it's already happening

It'll just take 3 months to bring it back, because Gorefiend was broken on beta aswell and he remained broken til Summer Sideshow

Had no reason to exist... in a fast-paced game. If it isn't really affecting the game as much as you say, then there def shouldn't be a problem to have it in the game in the first place.