Start army. Tier 1 units and viability on Overlord?

[WiseCog]

When buying your start team there's very few units that are both strong and income effective.
Barbarians are the best start units I think. Cheap pre-building, cheap to recruit, and cheap to maintain. Swordsmen are strong but costs too much (are they stronger than barbarians?). For heroes all are viable, but Wizard seems very weak as a start hero. Scout seems like its the strongest early game Hero. Commander is very good all around. Warrior is decent, but not as good as the scout in early fights (after a few levels he becomes powerful).

These are the synergies that I believe is the most efficient at clearing first areas decently without losses, AND that can be built within a few turns:
-Warrior + 3 Barbarians (with library or items).
-Warrior + 3 Swordsmen (without library). - This setup takes some more turns exploring/waiting before you can afford.
-Scout + 3 Barbarians (with library).
-Scout + 3 Swordsmen (without library). - This setup takes some more turns exploring/waiting before you can afford. But Scout is VERY strong early fights.
-Commander + 4 Barbarians (with library).
-Wizard + 3 Swordsmen (without library). - This setup takes some more turns exploring/waiting before you can afford.
-Wizard + 3 Barbarians (with library). - Very weak setup, and requires more work but can result in no losses. IMO too much of a gamble if you avoid save-scumming.

These are the synergies that can maintain income easily after clearing first province (never goes into negative income):
-Warrior + 3 Barbarians (with library).
-Scout + 3 Barbarians (with library).
-Commander + 4 Barbarians (with library).
-Wizard + 3 Barbarians (with library).

What are you thinking, am I in the wrong or are there other working solutions for Overlord? I have tried Pikemen some but they feel like a weak version of swordsmen. Pikemen are not tanky enough, dish out low damage and costs to much buy and maintain.

[Karol13]

I think that the best way to evaluate respective attributes of T1 units is to watch experienced player play Overlord difficulty (as on that difficulty it must be actual feats of the army that enable actual victory)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5k-zAwqPtLE&list=PLenDyZ4g7HoMfvqTJz1OFqyXajQNs0GxR

[WiseCog]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Karol13:

I think that the best way to evaluate respective attributes of T1 units is to watch experienced player play Overlord difficulty (as on that difficulty it must be actual feats of the army that enable actual victory)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5k-zAwqPtLE&list=PLenDyZ4g7HoMfvqTJz1OFqyXajQNs0GxR

Well I think the best way to evaluate is to play it myself. But yea, I have already seen that gameplay. It's a five years old video, and the game has been updated since then, BUT he uses the most efficient army setup even on the updated game IMO for overlord. Sadly he is not playing with some key features such as "continue exploring" instead of "exanime it". I wanted to see if anyone else plays anything else but barbarians on Overlord though? IMO the cost of most units of "good karma" will not allow us to play as safely and snowball with other units. And neutral units can not clear first provinces. But I wanted to see if I was wrong and if there were other "quick-clear" options..

Another overlord gameplay video is this (below). He however is wasting too many turns waiting for 2 crossbowmen which will be a problem vs other human players that use 4 barbarians instead. If he were playing on a map with less income, this strategy of his would be really weak, due to crossbowmen cost. He also does not use basic strategies such as "continue exploring".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDWSym1yroY&list=PLZgbJ7IH6KJbcBdlo-Y5nG-G8BbODxece&index=1

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A big problem with both of these gameplay videos though is they are not faced with 6 unit enemies on their first provinces (I think the game has either been updated since then or its a difference between campaign and skirmish shards). The 2 crossbowmen setup can not beat 6 units. They also don't play with "Fixers of the broken world mod", which is mandatory today. BUT I do know for a fact that a Commander and 4 Barbarians vs 6 enemy units will make sure that you have your first province at turn 3 without losses AND continue to have + in economy even on low income maps, which in turn will allow you to snowball efficiently. I am however trying to see if there's any units that can even come close to barbarians (cost and strength). So far good karma units are too costly and neutral units too weak. Swordsmen are very strong however, if you can afford 3-4.

[Karol13]

"Either the game has been updated"
The game has been updated also in this way, but more like the randomization is more wild. Meaning, you can experience much tougher neighboring provinces guard, or very timid and weak (4 low level units easy to beat, or 6~7 tough high level (5+) leveled units that can crush any starting hero with ease)

So the latest version is best played with the approach (ouch, all sites are tough, all 1st ring provinces guards are tough... restart! )

And yes, Overlord played as GOOD is ridiculously difficult, marginally impossible (especially as I observe a BIAS : enemy/neutral armored units hit by my units: 0-1 DMG, my armored units hit by neutral units: 3~7 DMG... like...WTF) And good units mostly are about the ARMOR, but when the game shuffles the armor calculation against human player, this is a literal death trap. And GOOD units are ridiculously expensive... buying crossbowmen or swordsmen without the resources (wood / metal) will ruin you in an instant.

Neutral units are a bit better, despite they might lack the ARMOR, they have still good HP and can usually move 2 hexes... and they might be lacking the extra HP or ATK (DMG) compared to EVIL units, common, neutrals are still super cheap, so I could apply the old drastic tactics : losing nearly all my units, but winning the fight, and simply replenish them. Honestly, the EXP levels for mundane units is totally overrated. Not saying that level 10 Spearman is not stronger than level 1 Spearmen, but getting a tier 1 unit to level 10 is usually a miracle anyways, so why bother. Strategically: as long as I get new province or new resource, screw my 3-4 units that cost 10 or 20 gold...

And neutral do not push me toward extreme random events choices (too bad or too good) and I can select the options that are more fitting.

Neutrals are by far not the best, but pretty efficient nevertheless. I can use good and evil magic and not give a fok about karma :)

[WiseCog]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Karol13:

"Either the game has been updated"
The game has been updated also in this way, but more like the randomization is more wild. Meaning, you can experience much tougher neighboring provinces guard, or very timid and weak (4 low level units easy to beat, or 6~7 tough high level (5+) leveled units that can crush any starting hero with ease)

So the latest version is best played with the approach (ouch, all sites are tough, all 1st ring provinces guards are tough... restart! )

And yes, Overlord played as GOOD is ridiculously difficult, marginally impossible (especially as I observe a BIAS : enemy/neutral armored units hit by my units: 0-1 DMG, my armored units hit by neutral units: 3~7 DMG... like...WTF) And good units mostly are about the ARMOR, but when the game shuffles the armor calculation against human player, this is a literal death trap. And GOOD units are ridiculously expensive... buying crossbowmen or swordsmen without the resources (wood / metal) will ruin you in an instant.

Neutral units are a bit better, despite they might lack the ARMOR, they have still good HP and can usually move 2 hexes... and they might be lacking the extra HP or ATK (DMG) compared to EVIL units, common, neutrals are still super cheap, so I could apply the old drastic tactics : losing nearly all my units, but winning the fight, and simply replenish them. Honestly, the EXP levels for mundane units is totally overrated. Not saying that level 10 Spearman is not stronger than level 1 Spearmen, but getting a tier 1 unit to level 10 is usually a miracle anyways, so why bother. Strategically: as long as I get new province or new resource, screw my 3-4 units that cost 10 or 20 gold...

And neutral do not push me toward extreme random events choices (too bad or too good) and I can select the options that are more fitting.

Neutrals are by far not the best, but pretty efficient nevertheless. I can use good and evil magic and not give a fok about karma :)

Thank you for the input, I will try to use more neutral cannon fodder units. Maybe that tactic can work as well.

[Woofy]

I love the Elves. They are expensive and a little fragile, but they can kill all the other units pretty easily. Wizards become better when you finally get the spells...Of course a lot depends on how big the Shard is..

What level is Overlord? I usually play on the 3rd or 4th level because I like the initial assessment for victory or defeat.

[WiseCog]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Woofy:

I love the Elves. They are expensive and a little fragile, but they can kill all the other units pretty easily. Wizards become better when you finally get the spells...Of course a lot depends on how big the Shard is..

What level is Overlord? I usually play on the 3rd or 4th level because I like the initial assessment for victory or defeat.

Overlord is the highest difficulty. Its a little unbalanced though on overlord ive noticed.

[Artorath]

If you are willing to plunder the capital a bit you can start warrior with 2 Swords+1 healer+fatigues. You need ~3 plunders probably, they average ~50 gold each (which is an acceptable payoff for temporary -1 income due to mood), and you'll want to time them for when you get enough gems for the healer. The important advantage is you get an army that can heal itself to full during fights before turn 10 so they can quickly go through all the clearable provinces/locations. Other setups burn upkeep in garrison trying to heal up and leave your hero vulnerable to ambushes during exploration if you don't want to reload.
I've not tried it too much, but with plunders scout/warrior can even start with xbows/bowmen, but first ring has to be crazy rich not to go wildly in debt.

With a poor start I would just use cannon fodder like Karol said, barbs/spears/brigands in order of increasing poverty (if barbs work then swords+healer often work anyway). Karma is overrated, it's just a morale bonus/malus (negligible) and a %chance for good/bad events (infrequent and negligible); better to do what helps you to win early, then worry about increasing/dropping it when you're winning.

[Jagulars]

I'm all with plundering. It's an underrated mechanic. However, there is a bug in the game. Normally, on Expert and higher difficulties, the capital starts on first development level (as indicated by the tooltip when choosing a difficulty on campaign) and couldn't really be plundered for any meaningful amount of gold. So if you don't want to exploit this bug, you'd want to capture a four dot province with cheaper units and plunder that instead.

By the way, barbs are the only starting unit that heals 2 HP per turn by default. They're just too good for their cost imo.

[Artorath]

The point isn't really to drop population, it's just getting the minimum guaranteed 20-70 + a little extra, not much to do with the bug (unless wiki is just wrong); without any units, low level hero plundering doesn't kill too much.

If you intentionally drop mood to minimum and farm rebellions that are higher tier fights than they would be at the lowest population level, then we could start using "exploit".

[Jagulars]

Good point. I forgot about the minimum amount.

[Red Bat]

Depends on shard. I'll go over some good setups, but it's a pretty well regarded fact that Barbarians are the most cost effective T1 unit by a pretty large margin.

Commander + all brigands and maybe keep the Slinger - You'll replace them later and brigands are fine albeit likely to die. Takes around 20 turns before brigands end up costing you more money than they are worth. You'll only want to do this if you start on a World of War surrounded by low income provinces. You'll either want shamans later, or you'll 180 and replace the brigands with lawful units later on as you'll still have 3 choices. Since your loot is being pilfered anyway, you can also consider supplementing them with thieves, but I never do this. The point is you pick a Commander because he works well with the world type, but you pick a disposable unit to get you out of the early game financial woes a map generation might give you.

Commander + all barbarians and fire all starting units - The Genesis setup. Not as clear cut good as it is in Genesis, but barbarians cost only slightly more than brigands while being loads better. They should trade well with everything you'll be fighting early on. They do not work well with healers though which means you might be slowed down in your expansion, but they work well with Shamans and Barbarians have more staying power without healing than any of the other tier 1's except Lizardmen. Not worth getting brigands or thieves if you start with barbarians as Barbarians outperform both for only slightly higher price.

Wizard + all brigands and fire all starting units - This is THE expendable "I'm surrounded by swamps" setup. Much prefer this to militiamen in this case. Your wizard will be doing all the heavy lifting of course and you'll only do this if gem income isn't a problem while gold income is a major one.

Wizard + Barbarians and fire all starting units - when you have access to more money and want something a little more permanent rather than just replacing all your starting units with undead.

Wizard + Pikemen and maybe keep the Slinger - When you decide you want a wizard and you have access to either iron or a few high income provinces. Works much better than brigands, but costs much more. Wizards don't really need a high damage unit as much as they simply need something to stop them from being attacked in melee. Still a very risky setup as it's vulnerable to ranged until you get crossbowmen.

Warrior + Crossbowmen and keep the Slinger for a bit - Crossbowmen supplement the warrior well. Later add Swordsmen and healers. Although better gear is more important than better units in this case. Your Warrior can basically come very close to soloing early game content with good gear and certain spells so extra melee units aren't a priority.

Scout + Swordsmen and keep the Slinger for a bit - Rangers want a strong defensive close ranged unit to hold enemies in place, but they want them to also be able to hit decently hard. Parry and high defenses works well for this. Pikemen also work, but it can be less reliable. If you go with Pikemen you'll want to be able to have your Scout play keepaway using terrain to their advantage to force the enemy to waste time attacking the Pikemen.

Scout + Barbarians and fire all starting units - Trade defensive utility and healer synergy for more offense and a more flexible unit overall. Unlike in Genesis, this isn't always better, but Barbarians tend to perform well in every situation.

For the record, unlike in Genesis, I don't think making your starting hero a commander is usually a very optimal strategy with the sole exception of being on a world of war.

[Jagulars]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Red Bat Media:

For the record, unlike in Genesis, I don't think making your starting hero a commander is usually a very optimal strategy with the sole exception of being on a world of war.

Why is it more viable in Genesis?

[Red Bat]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Jagulars:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Red Bat Media:

For the record, unlike in Genesis, I don't think making your starting hero a commander is usually a very optimal strategy with the sole exception of being on a world of war.

Why is it more viable in Genesis?

Most of the changes in Masters of the Broken World slightly favor having a single strong hero unit such as changing Astral Energy to basically give you another turn which works well with Warriors.

Most of the new shard types also hurt commanders disproportionately with the exception of world of rust and world of war. The low income shards and Worlds of Fear in particular.

In Genesis you would use the same strategy every shard because you'll rarely start in a bad situation for it to work. Just pick Commander and start with Barbarians and you'll win each time. Everything else was suboptimal.

[Draufen]

what is meant by "what untis do you play on overlord"? did you mean "what units do you play on overlord and win"? i think i havent beaten overlord except when AI went insane and stuck or was killing each other out leaving me alone to develop enough; i always play with neutral units+necro library, combining it later with healing library

[Jagulars]

Interesting