Railgun Nerfed?

[Chozo Ghost]

So, I've been playing the remaster and absolutely loving it so far. Can't really think of anything to complain about (other than the Berserker's new leap attack, which is unbalanced as all hell), but I did notice something while I was playing last night...

The Railgun has had its damage reduced. Usually it takes 2 shots to kill a Berserker with it, now it takes 3 (couple that with the aforementioned new leap attack and this makes it especially frustrating), it used to take 2 shots to kill an Icarus, now it too takes 3, and it used to take 5 shots with it to kill a Tank, where now it takes 8!

This couldn't have been done for balancing purposes, so I'm really hoping this was unintentional and will be fixed in an update. Nerf one of the most well-loved weapons in the game, yet give the Berserker a new attack that has entirely too much range and sometimes hits you when you're standing far above them? You don't mess with the mother of all Railguns like this!

[GamerXT]

What`s odd with the railgun edit is that the chaingun is still super powered too.

And yes, Quake 2 is from the era before gun balance was a thing, basically newer gun = usually better.

So trying to edit things is perhaps against the original gameplay.

[Shiro]

Автор сообщения: REVENANT

Автор сообщения: Shiro

Except mag rail is just worse rocket launcher (with better ammo reserves tho), mentioning it here is not correct. Only thing it is good at peeking-and-shooting at tanks and supertanks, otherwise it only works well to save some ammo for good weapons, sometimes.

So make up your mind, which weapons am I allowed to peak and shoot with or not? Apparently its okay to use the Magrail for that but we shouldn't use the Railgun for that?

Get some consistency in your arguement.

Main guy "argue-menting" here is you :) Your memory gone weak; peerk-and-shoot is the style railgun is supposed to be good at and it's more than fine with me; it is railgun's combat capability as main-and-only weapon that was over the top.
You can peek-and-shoot with any slow firing weapons, but railgun being hitscan with infinite range is best at that. Phalanx works too at that but mostly against targets that won't dodge, otherwise a lot of it's dps (supposedly higher than railgun) is wasted; still can make it work against small-medium targets too if you have enough time and ammo, you will hit eventually (or kill with splash). So, I have no issues with mag rail - but apparently you do since you are unable to comprehend that raw damage/firerate stats do not decide by themselves. When you mention other weapons as counterarguments to deserved railgun nerf, don't forget to also state other factors.

Автор сообщения: gamerXT3

What`s odd with the railgun edit is that the chaingun is still super powered too.

It is... until you run out of ammo, which happens real soon if you try to clear more than few medium-large enemies with it. IS worth saving bullets for when you suddenly face a small army, tho.

[dml!]

Автор сообщения: Shiro

Автор сообщения: gamerXT3

What`s odd with the railgun edit is that the chaingun is still super powered too.

It is... until you run out of ammo, which happens real soon if you try to clear more than few medium-large enemies with it. IS worth saving bullets for when you suddenly face a small army, tho.

Could we not agree then that the real problem with the railgun is actually the ammo capacity, not the damage, considering the other high powered weapons run out of ammo fairly quickly? There's enough railgun ammo that players can kill a good portion of enemies with it if they so want. Obviously that's still highly inefficient because the damage over time is inferior to other weapons like the chaingun. But it seems to me that a better way to limit the players that for some reason choose to use pretty much only the railgun would have been to lower the ammo capacity, rather than make it an inferior weapon in terms of damage for players that already used it in a balanced way with other weapons.

[Insano-Man]

I agree that the railgun's nerf should've been to its ammo. You're absolutely swamped with railgun slugs throughout the game, and the huge capacity means you've always got room to pick up more. I think a double nerf to its pickup count and total ammo capacity would've been much better.

[NOBLE SIX]

Автор сообщения: dml!

Автор сообщения: Shiro

It is... until you run out of ammo, which happens real soon if you try to clear more than few medium-large enemies with it. IS worth saving bullets for when you suddenly face a small army, tho.

Could we not agree then that the real problem with the railgun is actually the ammo capacity, not the damage, considering the other high powered weapons run out of ammo fairly quickly? There's enough railgun ammo that players can kill a good portion of enemies with it if they so want. Obviously that's still highly inefficient because the damage over time is inferior to other weapons like the chaingun. But it seems to me that a better way to limit the players that for some reason choose to use pretty much only the railgun would have been to lower the ammo capacity, rather than make it an inferior weapon in terms of damage for players that already used it in a balanced way with other weapons.

There's nothing wrong with having plenty of ammo in a game.

When Q2 came out people were still playing FPS games without +mouselook as standard, people weren't trained aimbots back then.

If you have plenty of ammo... it might just mean you've got better at the game and games in general. The game wants you to have plentiful ammo and to use it. It's not panic button weapon like the BFG in the new Doom games.

And there's no reason to balance a gun around 25 years of skill development.

Quake 2 plays a certain way and these balance changes do nothing to honour it and the more time I spend with the game the more I realise some of these new changes were big mistakes that damage its identity.

[NOBLE SIX]

Автор сообщения: Shiro

Автор сообщения: REVENANT

So make up your mind, which weapons am I allowed to peak and shoot with or not? Apparently its okay to use the Magrail for that but we shouldn't use the Railgun for that?

Get some consistency in your arguement.

Main guy "argue-menting" here is you :) Your memory gone weak; peerk-and-shoot is the style railgun is supposed to be good at and it's more than fine with me; it is railgun's combat capability as main-and-only weapon that was over the top.
You can peek-and-shoot with any slow firing weapons, but railgun being hitscan with infinite range is best at that. Phalanx works too at that but mostly against targets that won't dodge, otherwise a lot of it's dps (supposedly higher than railgun) is wasted; still can make it work against small-medium targets too if you have enough time and ammo, you will hit eventually (or kill with splash). So, I have no issues with mag rail - but apparently you do since you are unable to comprehend that raw damage/firerate stats do not decide by themselves. When you mention other weapons as counterarguments to deserved railgun nerf, don't forget to also state other factors.

Автор сообщения: gamerXT3

What`s odd with the railgun edit is that the chaingun is still super powered too.

It is... until you run out of ammo, which happens real soon if you try to clear more than few medium-large enemies with it. IS worth saving bullets for when you suddenly face a small army, tho.

We have been stating the other factors, that's why there's a whole conversation about the DPS which you're choosing to ignore.

[ReakuTheCrate]

The railgun isn't the only thing that took a hit in terms of damage, the shotguns aren't producing the damage damage they used too.

[dml!]

Автор сообщения: REVENANT

There's nothing wrong with having plenty of ammo in a game.

When Q2 came out people were still playing FPS games without +mouselook as standard, people weren't trained aimbots back then.

If you have plenty of ammo... it might just mean you've got better at the game and games in general. The game wants you to have plentiful ammo and to use it. It's not panic button weapon like the BFG in the new Doom games.

And there's no reason to balance a gun around 25 years of skill development.

Quake 2 plays a certain way and these balance changes do nothing to honour it and the more time I spend with the game the more I realise some of these new changes were big mistakes that damage its identity.

Well yeah I personally wouldn't have changed it at all, there's no need in my view. But the devs clearly thought people were using the railgun exclusively which is why they nerfed it. I'm just trying to suggest that if they really wanted to change it, they should have changed it in ammo capacity rather than damage, because the damage was well balanced before.

Plus with this version the railgun has had a natural reduction in its abilities anyway even without the damage reduction - flying enemies in particular path towards the player quickly so can be more difficult to line up, same with berserkers because of their leap attack, and enemies can spot the player from longer distances and wider angles so it's harder to find unaware enemies to use the bonus damage on.

[Shiro]

Автор сообщения: REVENANT

We have been stating the other factors, that's why there's a whole conversation about the DPS which you're choosing to ignore.

So from your words "not taking DPS as the main and only factor" is "ignoring"? This is way below "can convince anyone". Now why won't you try to actually prove why any weapon besides railgun was stronger than it should have been by showing all sides of a weapon, as opposed to "omg it has more dps than railgun its op"

Автор сообщения: dml!

Автор сообщения: Shiro

It is... until you run out of ammo, which happens real soon if you try to clear more than few medium-large enemies with it. IS worth saving bullets for when you suddenly face a small army, tho.

Could we not agree then that the real problem with the railgun is actually the ammo capacity, not the damage, considering the other high powered weapons run out of ammo fairly quickly? There's enough railgun ammo that players can kill a good portion of enemies with it if they so want. Obviously that's still highly inefficient because the damage over time is inferior to other weapons like the chaingun. But it seems to me that a better way to limit the players that for some reason choose to use pretty much only the railgun would have been to lower the ammo capacity, rather than make it an inferior weapon in terms of damage for players that already used it in a balanced way with other weapons.

Yes, damage nerf is only second best compared to theoretical ammo nerf. If you only had 5 slugs per pickup and 50 max with backpack, you would need to actually consider situations it should be used at, limiting it's usefulness. Still, we have what we have; not a perfect solution, but still decent. (Not sure, maybe devs are reading this and can change it to low-ammo old-damage version?)

[Phoenix]

The damage did not need a nerf, and the ammo does not need a nerf. Stop trying to fix a problem that never existed until the current devs made a bad decision.

[FixbotWill]

I don't think it's a bad decision, I think it's a good decision. Incidentally I'd be quite alright with an ammo nerf *as well*.

That said, perhaps the devs might make it a toggle option. in which case I'd be glad to keep it.

[Insano-Man]

I'd rather the game had stayed mechanically unchanged, as well, but this is the hand we were dealt. Unless someone can pull together a camp of purists and successfully push that perspective, these are the cards we're going to have to play with.

We may as well try to make the balance work if it's got to change, instead of it just being a set of weird and arbitrary changes.

[NOBLE SIX]

Well I went over to the discord and had a chat with the dev in charge of these changes.

He's relenting a little bit and upping it to 125, but I've tried ask him to change it to 135 but I think its unlikely.

This has the tank still taking 6 shots to kill instead of 7 in remaster and 5 in vanilla, but also gets berserkers and icarus' going down in 2, but that still leaves some of the mid to late game enemies a bit tankier too, hence I'd like the developer in question to change it to 135.

Best I can say is that everyone here who wants to change it, head on over to the official Quake discord and politely engage in a conversation with somebody who goes by the alias SPONGE.

https://discord.gg/qd4HBBPc

Just tell them you'd prefer it the Railgun slaps.

If he says, well you'll just use the Railgun and nothing else, just give him and honest answer as to yes or no, and politely nudge him to reconsider the change some more.

[fireballcarwar]

Автор сообщения: REVENANT

Dude, will you use your wonderful math brain and do dps for all the weapons so we can see where the railgun is and was across the whole swathe of Q2 weapons? While I can get to the damage values in the DLL I don't understand how to "see" the ROF.

Sure
I have listed them from highest damage to lowest and pointed out the Railguns with arrows:

1. BFG 10K: 17,500 (looking at enemy)
2. Chaingun: 13,440
3. Hyperblaster: 12,000
4. Ion Ripper: 10,000
5. Plasma Beam: 9,000
6. Rocket Launcher: 7,000 - 8,400 (direct hit)
7. Super Shotgun: 6,000
8. ETF Rifle: 6,000
9. Pre-nerf Railgun: 5,700 <-------------------
10. Phalanx: 5,700
11. Grenade Launcher: 5,100 - 5,600 (direct hit)
12. Machinegun: 4,800
13. Nerfed Railgun: 3,800 <-------------------
14. Hand Grenade: 3,250
15. Proximity Launcher: 3,000
16. Shotgun: 2,400
17. Chainsaw: 2,100
18. Blaster: 1,200

Can't place:
Trap: instant kill but most larger enemies are immune
Tesla Mine: ?

The pre-nerf Railgun sits at the #9 spot out of 18 weapons a.k.a. right in the middle (#6 out of 11 without expansion weapons), a mid-tier weapon yet it was deserving of a nerf for some reason? This is made even more absurd by the fact that ALL THREE of the top 3 weapons in the game GOT BUFFED. Why? WHY?! The ridiculousness doesn't end because the nerfed Railgun sits at the #13 spot (#8 out of 11 without expansion weapons, this is absolutely insane!). The nerfed RG is only better than the ammo-less emergency weapons and "starter" guns which get superior versions later such as the Super Shotgun, Grenade Launcher, Chaing-hey wait a minute...The nerfed Railgun is WORSE than the Machinegun, a starter weapon that gets an upgrade in the form of the Chaingun.

So the nerfed RG isn't even better than the intentionally crappy guns despite formerly being a power weapon meant to take on the most dangerous tanky enemies in the game. It's the second to last weapon you find, when top tier enemies become much more commonplace, yet it gets outpaced by one of the first guns you find which gets an upgraded version later on. A mid tier weapon nerfed to the point where it's one of the worst weapons in the game while top tier weapons like the BFG, Chaingun and Hyperblaster GOT BUFFS! This is not game balance!

[StrikerTheHedgefox]

Автор сообщения: fireballcarwar

Автор сообщения: REVENANT

Dude, will you use your wonderful math brain and do dps for all the weapons so we can see where the railgun is and was across the whole swathe of Q2 weapons? While I can get to the damage values in the DLL I don't understand how to "see" the ROF.

Sure
I have listed them from highest damage to lowest and pointed out the Railguns with arrows:

1. BFG 10K: 17,500 (looking at enemy)
2. Chaingun: 13,440
3. Hyperblaster: 12,000
4. Ion Ripper: 10,000
5. Plasma Beam: 9,000
6. Rocket Launcher: 7,000 - 8,400 (direct hit)
7. Super Shotgun: 6,000
8. ETF Rifle: 6,000
9. Pre-nerf Railgun: 5,700 <-------------------
10. Phalanx: 5,700
11. Grenade Launcher: 5,100 - 5,600 (direct hit)
12. Machinegun: 4,800
13. Nerfed Railgun: 3,800 <-------------------
14. Hand Grenade: 3,250
15. Proximity Launcher: 3,000
16. Shotgun: 2,400
17. Chainsaw: 2,100
18. Blaster: 1,200

Can't place:
Trap: instant kill but most larger enemies are immune
Tesla Mine: ?

The pre-nerf Railgun sits at the #9 spot out of 18 weapons a.k.a. right in the middle (#6 out of 11 without expansion weapons), a mid-tier weapon yet it was deserving of a nerf for some reason? This is made even more absurd by the fact that ALL THREE of the top 3 weapons in the game GOT BUFFED. Why? WHY?! The ridiculousness doesn't end because the nerfed Railgun sits at the #13 spot. The nerfed RG is only better than the ammo-less emergency weapons and "starter" guns which get superior versions later such as the Super Shotgun, Grenade Launcher, Chaing-hey wait a minute...The nerfed Railgun is WORSE than the Machinegun, a starter weapon that gets an upgrade in the form of the Chaingun.

So the nerfed RG isn't even better than the intentionally crappy guns despite formerly being a power weapon meant to take on the most dangerous tanky enemies in the game. It's the second to last weapon you find, when top tier enemies become much more commonplace, yet it gets outpaced by one of the first guns you find which gets an upgraded version later on. A mid tier weapon nerfed to the point where it's one of the worst weapons in the game while top tier weapons like the BFG, Chaingun and Hyperblaster GOT BUFFS! This is not game balance!

Yeah, it should have been left alone. The math also puts it all into perspective. Though, I'm pretty certain the BFG, HyperBlaster, and Chaingun didn't get buffed. They require the same number of hits as the OG build from my testing so far, unless I'm missing something.

Either way, yeah, someone should send this chart/post to Sponge.

Apparently the "surprise damage" that doubles the damage on unaware enemies is what prompted the Railgun nerf. Which tells me they should have just reduced the surprise damage for the Railgun specifically, instead of the base damage.