Quake 2 vs The Reckoning and Ground Zero

[0ld_/\/\etal]

Really enjoyed the single player of Quake 2 base game after many years. The soundtrack is great and the tempo of the action is pretty spot on although unit 2 was a bit bland. All in all it was fun. Played on hard+ btw.

I recently completed the Reckoning and Ground Zero and It just felt like a hard slog to get through. The designers tried to make the game harder by making enemies tougher and adding in beta class enemies, turrets and annoying spiders but all in all it just slowed the pace of the action down and encourage more peek a boo shooting from corners instead of constant movement with run n gun strafing.
Overall I liked the look of the levels of the Reckoning more the Ground Zero. But just felt like a little bit of a let down gameplay wise.

Thoughts?

[Majestic]

I bet you forgot about this post but I completely agree. The enemies hit harder, especially on hard the railgun dudes hit you for 35-40 per hit. They place really tough dudes in cramped area's resulting in peek-a-boo tactics. In fact, i'm not sure if its the remaster but the enemies even pre-empt your peek by reading input controls. So you have to fake-peek, wait for their attack then attack. Lest you be hit even once and have to scour for 3 or 4 10point healthpacks to heal the one attack they got in.

It feels like a massive slog indeed, compared to the main campaign. I feel like they did the Dark Souls mistake going to Dark Souls 2 by just ramping up the difficulty as if that will make the game more fun. It doesn't, it grinds it to a halt and you're not looking at the scenery or enjoying a 1v1 battle, you're paranoid scanning the area looking for traps.

This also, much more than the main campaign, does the thing where every encounter it spawns enemies behind where you came from, so when you try and hide from gunfire you run into those and get hit anyway. I knocked it back to Medium and finished it, I can eventually slog my way through hard but i doubt it's rewarding.

[48 YEARS OLD VIRGIN]

Автор сообщения: Majestic

This also, much more than the main campaign, does the thing where every encounter it spawns enemies behind where you came from, so when you try and hide from gunfire you run into those and get hit anyway.

THIS. It's already infuriating in the main game, I don't want to know in the addons.

[Majestic]

Автор сообщения: Ulysse

Автор сообщения: Majestic

This also, much more than the main campaign, does the thing where every encounter it spawns enemies behind where you came from, so when you try and hide from gunfire you run into those and get hit anyway.

THIS. It's already infuriating in the main game, I don't want to know in the addons.

Well usually you could hear them standing behind some wall which you know was gonna crumble when you went past it. Rarely were you actually flanked by surprise, and rarely by higher-level enemies like gladiators and brains, but rather it was usually berserkers and parasites.

I think the balance in the main campaign is ok. Which is why it was so apparently obvious that they purposefully made it much harder in the expansion packs, because I played both on hard and I had to resort to peek-a-boo tactics much more, and I was low on health for much longer periods of time. Both are not by accident.

[NOBLE SIX]

The backtracking in the expansions is at an absurd level, they didn't really do it for me.

I did enjoy the new weapons though.

[M.C. Grammajam]

ground zero is much better after they added the lasers to the turrets. still not crazy about the reckoning. as soon as they add the ion ripper grunts it becomes immediately less fun. still'd say they're both at least trying.

new weapons are saucy

[Majestic]

Автор сообщения: M.C. Grammajam

ground zero is much better after they added the lasers to the turrets. still not crazy about the reckoning. as soon as they add the phalanx grunts it becomes immediately less fun. still'd say they're both at least trying.

new weapons are saucy

What do you mean, tight hallways with ricochet rounds? Whats not to like getting hit from behind a wall.

[Grimmbald]

Agree on The Reckoning but disagree on Ground Zero. I had a pretty good time with it back in the day and through this latest run. The proximity launcher helps a ton when entering new areas to flush out hiding mobs. Also ETF rifle fits nice between machine gun and chain-gun when low on ammo. Plasma beam and chainsaw were meh. Overall I thought the level flow we pretty good and especially now that turrets are nerfed. For me, it all was a good time.

[Insano-Man]

Автор сообщения: Majestic

In fact, i'm not sure if its the remaster but the enemies even pre-empt your peek by reading input controls. So you have to fake-peek, wait for their attack then attack.

I can't say for sure if the enemy reads player inputs, but I do know that many enemies now have a suppressing fire behavior, where they'll attack the last place they saw the player if the player ducks into cover. Off the top of my head, this includes gunners, tanks, and iron maidens.

That said, I recently played through Boltgun, where enemies did track the player through walls, and would lead their attacks on a player coming out of cover. That, plus the fact that enemies would perfectly lead the player at all times - including basic cultists and nurglings - made for a lot of the same peek-a-boo gameplay. It wouldn't surprise me if there's been inspiration drawn from there, or if there's just a wind in the industry right now to that effect.

I'll chip in and say I don't like the new suppressing fire behavior. It catches the player off-guard once, and, as soon as the player learns, it just slows the entire game down. Sometimes, you just don't have the room to circle-strafe, or the opportunity to stagger the enemy. It's really bad with gunners because of the delay on their grenades. It was miserable in the main campaign's palace levels, which are full of tanks.

[M.C. Grammajam]

Автор сообщения: Grimmbald

Agree on The Reckoning but disagree on Ground Zero. I had a pretty good time with it back in the day and through this latest run. The proximity launcher helps a ton when entering new areas to flush out hiding mobs. Also ETF rifle fits nice between machine gun and chain-gun when low on ammo. Plasma beam and chainsaw were meh. Overall I thought the level flow we pretty good and especially now that turrets are nerfed. For me, it all was a good time.

agreed. the changes did wonders for ground zero. not leveled with the base game for me, but i find it less awkward to play than the reckoning

[Insano-Man]

So, I started into The Reckoning. While I won't say anything on the original's enemies, I'm starting to think that ion ripper guards are reading player inputs.

I had one that was rooted in place, and I baited him into firing. He went through his suppressive fire routine as usual, and I waited a little longer to be sure he wasn't just in between bursts. The instant I moved towards the edge of cover, he started firing again, before I was even exposed.

[Majestic]

Автор сообщения: Insano-Man

So, I started into The Reckoning. While I won't say anything on the original's enemies, I'm starting to think that ion ripper guards are reading player inputs.

I had one that was rooted in place, and I baited him into firing. He went through his suppressive fire routine as usual, and I waited a little longer to be sure he wasn't just in between bursts. The instant I moved towards the edge of cover, he started firing again, before I was even exposed.

Yeah its what i've also been seeing. The Parasites (dogs) and brains (lumbering dudes with shields) both inputtrack and fire their very long instant range attack as soon as you peek. The gladiators you also have to bait into attacking by faking a peek.

And im pretty sure they increased the range on those parasites, because they can attack you from much further away. And the brains used to not even have a ranged attack. They kept the high hitpoints and reflective shield, but neglected to think that this used to be because they were slow moving. But if you give them an instant tracking ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ laserbeam this becomes really annoying. As you basically have to lob 5-6 grenades at them from around the corner, lest you lose 50% of your hitpoints in 2 seconds of exposure.

I like the game still, but they clearly knew how to balance better in 1997. Now everyone just wants to make it tough as nails, as if that somehow elevates gameplay.

[Insano-Man]

I'm reasonably certain that the brains' laser attack was present in one of the expansions, and it was back-ported to the main campaign for the re-release. Even still, I remember them using it much more sparingly. I also don't remember nearly as many brains (brainses? breese?) in the campaign.

Parasites, I honestly can't figure out. They've definitely had a range increase; I was hit by one from about two floors below in the main campaign. But as to when they track the player, when they don't, when their tongue is supposed to get stuck, when it's not - I haven't a clue.

Another thing I've noticed is that tanks are firing their rockets with no wind-up sometimes. I think it's part of their suppressing fire routine, but I don't know for sure, since I've seen them do it out in the open.

Honestly, it really feels like a lot of these new behaviors should've been limited to Nightmare difficulty, or even a new difficulty entirely. A tickbox for new games would've worked, too.

[dml!]

Ground Zero was massively more fun to play in the remaster. Still some very annoying fights, but being able to see the turrets because of their lasers and also now one shot them with rockets or rail at least meant I wasn't peeking around every corner late game at least. Also I forgot that I shouldn't use quad on the penultimate boss because the final boss is ridiculous to fight without it, but that goes for the original too.

Reckoning didn't seem much different really, though reducing the health of the beta gladiators sure made the final units less of a chore.

[dml!]

Автор сообщения: Insano-Man

I'm reasonably certain that the brains' laser attack was present in one of the expansions, and it was back-ported to the main campaign for the re-release. Even still, I remember them using it much more sparingly. I also don't remember nearly as many brains (brainses? breese?) in the campaign.

Parasites, I honestly can't figure out. They've definitely had a range increase; I was hit by one from about two floors below in the main campaign. But as to when they track the player, when they don't, when their tongue is supposed to get stuck, when it's not - I haven't a clue.

Another thing I've noticed is that tanks are firing their rockets with no wind-up sometimes. I think it's part of their suppressing fire routine, but I don't know for sure, since I've seen them do it out in the open.

Honestly, it really feels like a lot of these new behaviors should've been limited to Nightmare difficulty, or even a new difficulty entirely. A tickbox for new games would've worked, too.

Yeah The Reckoning added the brain's laser attack originally. And yes with the tanks I think it's maybe bugged slightly, since sometimes if I go behind cover with the rocket attack building up they don't actually fire, but then I come around the corner and they fire instantly. So I think they're supposed to shoot when you've gone into cover and the second attack is the new suppression feature (which doesn't include a new build-up animation), but because they don't actually shoot first time you expect they've moved on to the next attack when they haven't.

[BloodShed]

Автор сообщения: Insano-Man

I'm reasonably certain that the brains' laser attack was present in one of the expansions, and it was back-ported to the main campaign for the re-release. Even still, I remember them using it much more sparingly. I also don't remember nearly as many brains (brainses? breese?) in the campaign.

It's the Beta class Brains from the reckoning.

It's better since they're actually a threat now.

Автор сообщения: Insano-Man

Parasites, I honestly can't figure out. They've definitely had a range increase; I was hit by one from about two floors below in the main campaign. But as to when they track the player, when they don't, when their tongue is supposed to get stuck, when it's not - I haven't a clue.

They don't get stuck at long range or when the distance between the target and the wall behind them is too great.