Am I the only one disturbed by the pentagrams?

[Zeemo]

So, hear me out.

I've been looking forward to this game for a long time, and now that it's released, I'm loving it. But the pentagrams and Ram heads in the sanctuary make me really uncomfortable.

Couldn't they maybe switch it out with any other symbol and statues? Because they are actively trying to cater to the entire gaming community, which a bunch of are Christians. And I know not all Christians feel this way, but I don't want to feel like never making a certain room just because the symbols make me uncomfortable. I just don't like sacrificing creatures to a pentagram, even in a game. It doesn't feel right to be a Christian and be indulging in virtual satanistic rituals. (For those that don't know the ram head is a symbol representing Satan)

It just sometimes bothers me how gaming companies wouldn't dare put something into a game that would offend the Muslim faith or something like that, but don't care about the Christian gamers out there.

I'm not saying anyone else should stop playing because of this, not at all! It's just my opinion and I don't like those symbols in a game I love.

[AvatarIII]

This has been raised once before and the thread had some developer input so that might interest you
http://steamcommunity.com/app/230190/discussions/0/610573751160581789/

[Zeemo]

Originally posted by AvatarIII:

This has been raised once before and the thread had some developer input so that might interest you
http://steamcommunity.com/app/230190/discussions/0/610573751160581789/

Thanx alot man

[George The Ork]

Isn't it supposed to be satanic?

[AvatarIII]

Originally posted by Ossian Murkfluoresce:

Originally posted by AvatarIII:

This has been raised once before and the thread had some developer input so that might interest you
http://steamcommunity.com/app/230190/discussions/0/610573751160581789/

Thanx alot man

also found another thread on the official forums
https://forum.subterraneangames.com/threads/regarding-the-sanctuary.6848

[Noontide]

Hi Guys,

I'd just like to remind everyone to be respectful of one and other in these forums, please recognise and be mindful of the beliefs of others being as valid as your own. We respect everyone's right to have their opinion heard, but If we see anything we deem to be overtly offensive we will be deleting posts.

As for the appearance of the sanctuary room, we use tropes identified with the occult and ritualism to create a recognisable theme around the room. We don't consider it to have any ties to Satanism or any religious connotations. Though we recognise how some may be discomforted by some symbolism, as symbols do have different meanings to different people it's purely used for artistic representation of what the popular media recognises as occult.

Thank you,

Lee

[Clumsy Vulcan]

Guys. As I can't edit out the quotes of deleted posts from your posts, I'm just having to delete your posts entirely.

Please refrain from making jokes or comments at anyones expense, and please don't respond to such comments or I'll have to delete your post as well.

Thanks.

Edit: Go away Lee.

[Zeemo]

Originally posted by Noontide:

Hi Guys,

I'd just like to remind everyone to be respectful of one and other in these forums, please recognise and be mindful of the beliefs of others being as valid as your own. We respect everyone's right to have their opinion heard, but If we see anything we deem to be overtly offensive we will be deleting posts.

As for the appearance of the sanctuary room, we use tropes identified with the occult and ritualism to create a recognisable theme around the room. We don't consider it to have any ties to Satanism or any religious connotations. Though we recognise how some may be discomforted by some symbolism, as symbols do have different meanings to different people it's purely used for artistic representation of what the popular media recognises as occult.

Thank you,

Lee

Originally posted by Simburgur:

Guys. As I can't edit out the quotes of deleted posts from your posts, I'm just having to delete your posts entirely.

Please refrain from making jokes or comments at anyones expense, and please don't respond to such comments or I'll have to delete your post as well.

Thanks.

Edit: Go away Lee.

Thanx alot guys, this is all I wanted to hear. I was just curious and wanted to know If my opinion is being heard. I really appreciate this, honest , clear and civil response. Sorry If I caused any problems, still, Awesome game, well done guys!

[fuzzypinkunicorns666]

I'm going to try and bring some intelligent discussion into this conversation about the meanings behind various symbolism and what I've always found funny which is how symbols which traditionally are good and represent good health. Then gets turned to some evil and bad no no symbol due to religions or groups that don't understand religions.

Since it was brought up, lets go with St. Peter's cross, also known as the inverted cross. Down with Christianity, Hail Satan, blah blah blah. Or simply- a St. during crusifiction decided he was unworthy to die in the same way as his lord and savior and requested he get crusified upside down. Hince creating a symbol for being humble before your god. So in other words, it is a holy symbol of Christianity which over time people forgot what it ment and turned it evil.

Same can be said about the Pentagram which has all sorts of ancient meanings and beliefs behind it. None of them being particularly 'evil', that even Christianity when spreading picked it up and because using it as a holy symbol representing the "Five-Wounds of Christ". That then changed during the renessance where it was picked up as an alchemical symbol and because science = magic. It started getting it's current negative outlook at being a satanic symbol, especially when put upside down.

As for the rams head- yeah it's just a sacrifical goat, something which was perfectly alright in old religions including Christianity, but eventually was labeled as taboo when Christianity was trying to break off ties from the other religions which originally founded it. In the bible you can see all sorts of images of sacrifical animals and goats being sent to god.

While this has little to do with the argument of "Is it right to put down, or is it offensive". I think it'd add to the discussion to describe what these symbols are and honestly what they truly represent for those people whom clearly forgot. Like most.

But that's all for now, join me next week when I discuss how an Eastern Symbol for Prosparity, fortune, and happiness is turned to being the most evil symbol in Western Civilization. Have fun folks!

[Rhudda]

Originally posted by Ossian Murkfluoresce:

(For those that don't know the ram head is a symbol representing Satan)

Food for thought: This is a game about being a lord of the underworld commanded by an evil god. You have in your employ cultists and demonic entities like the succubus. You fight priests among other foes. In this game, you are as close to a servant of the devil as it gets without spelling it out. If you're bothered by "indulging in virtual satanic rituals", why doesn't the entire premise of the game bother you?

Besides, those symbols are used as a shorthand for the occult. Neither are there inverted crosses (St. Peter's crosses, but most people associate them with satanism) nor is there blasphemy or desacration of overtly Christian symbols and implements. The symbols are as vague as they get.

Originally posted by Ossian Murkfluoresce:

It just sometimes bothers me how gaming companies wouldn't dare put something into a game that would offend the Muslim faith or something like that, but don't care about the Christian gamers out there.

And this paragraph makes me quite angry. Firstly, the devs didn't target Christianity at all - see my second paragraph. Secondly, this argument has been used too often to belittle any kind of critique or satire of Christianity. Do you know why Christianity shows up more often in Western media than any other religion? Because that's what the creators of said media know best. That's what their main audience knows best. Here, I'll let a better man than I explain it to you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WACssKcxWLw

Sorry about the quality - I couldn't find a better version right now.

[Tom7i]

Originally posted by Ossian Murkfluoresce:

It just sometimes bothers me how gaming companies wouldn't dare put something into a game that would offend the Muslim faith or something like that, but don't care about the Christian gamers out there.

Have you ever seen or played Counter-Strike, Wolfenstein, Stalker or Red Alert? All of those contain stuff & symbols which could be easily offendable to certain nationalities or demographics, but most players and onlookers showed a healthy dose of common sense with the perception that it's only a game in a fictional universe and doesn't have to be taken too seriously.

If we'd take the Stalker series for instance, the game is set in Chernobyl and has lots of "radioactive" signs which could be realistically seen as much more sinister than an inverted pentagram (radiation is a real killer after all). As for the pentagram, it's a very known real-world symbol used to trigger a corellation in the player' head, specifically the notion of "occult evil witchcraft going on here" which is what you should expect in any case when playing as an evil Underlord battling against a "good" empire.

Edit: ninja'd by devs

[Machin Shin]

sorry but i cant stand this... im respectful but.... its just a game if you cant stand such symbols its your problem...

[Zeemo]

Originally posted by Unwerth:

Originally posted by Ossian Murkfluoresce:

(For those that don't know the ram head is a symbol representing Satan)

Food for thought: This is a game about being a lord of the underworld commanded by an evil god. You have in your employ cultists and demonic entities like the succubus. You fight priests among other foes. In this game, you are as close to a servant of the devil as it gets without spelling it out. If you're bothered by "indulging in virtual satanic rituals", why doesn't the entire premise of the game bother you?

Besides, those symbols are used as a shorthand for the occult. Neither are there inverted crosses (St. Peter's crosses, but most people associate them with satanism) nor is there blasphemy or desacration of overtly Christian symbols and implements. The symbols are as vague as they get.

Originally posted by Ossian Murkfluoresce:

It just sometimes bothers me how gaming companies wouldn't dare put something into a game that would offend the Muslim faith or something like that, but don't care about the Christian gamers out there.

And this paragraph makes me quite angry. Firstly, the devs didn't target Christianity at all - see my second paragraph. Secondly, this argument has been used too often to belittle any kind of critique or satire of Christianity. Do you know why Christianity shows up more often in Western media than any other religion? Because that's what the creators of said media know best. That's what their main audience knows best. Here, I'll let a better man than I explain it to you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WACssKcxWLw

Sorry about the quality - I couldn't find a better version right now.

Thanx for your point. Sorry I didn't mean for that part to be offensive. I simply mean that some of the bigger gaming companies have things in their games that are (Not Purposely) offensive to the chrisitan community. I didn't say that are targeting the christian community, simply that they sometimes put designs into a game not on purpose, and when it is stated, few people care. But If that were to happen with islam being offended, changes would be made or it would never be there in the first place. Although that might be because they shoot people though... You made a good point with your first paragraph though, I am still considering it.

Originally posted by no5f3r4tu:

Originally posted by Ossian Murkfluoresce:

It just sometimes bothers me how gaming companies wouldn't dare put something into a game that would offend the Muslim faith or something like that, but don't care about the Christian gamers out there.

Have you ever seen or played Counter-Strike, Wolfenstein, Stalker or Red Alert? All of those contain stuff & symbols which could be easily offendable to certain nationalities or demographics, but most players and onlookers showed a healthy dose of common sense with the perception that it's only a game in a fictional universe and doesn't have to be taken too seriously, regardless of the symbols used inside.

If we'd take the Stalker series for instance, the game is set in Chernobyl and has lots of "radioactive" signs which could be realistically seen as much more dangerous and sinister than a pentagram (radiation is a real killer unlike magic). As for the pentagram, it's a very known real-world symbol used to trigger a corellation in the player' head, specifically the notion of "occult evil witchcraft going on here" which is what you should expect in any case when playing as an evil Underlord battling against a "white" empire.

Thank you I appreciate all your responses. I know but radiation is a physical warning of something physical that can hurt you. The symbols I'm talking about (Supposedly) are representations of something specifically anti-christian. (Once again, i'm not saying any developers purposely do this, or are attacking christianity) Valid ponts.

[Zeemo]

Originally posted by PitchBlackSun:

sorry but i cant stand this... im respectful but.... its just a game if you cant stand such symbols its your problem...

I appreciate you not talking random nonsense. It's just my religious views, so It's your opinion that it's my problem then. But I agree it is a problem with me, I dislike the symbols. I was just stating my opinion on this post.

[Marlowe-33]

First world problems eh.


sadly i can't type what i wanted to without getting banned.

[Rhudda]

Originally posted by Ossian Murkfluoresce:

Thanx for your point. Sorry I didn't mean for that part to be offensive. I simply mean that some of the bigger gaming companies have things in their games that are (Not Purposely) offensive to the chrisitan community. I didn't say that are targeting the christian community, simply that they sometimes put designs into a game not on purpose, and when it is stated, few people care. But If that were to happen with islam being offended, changes would be made or it would never be there in the first place. Although that might be because they shoot people though... You made a good point with your first paragraph though, I am still considering it.

I hope by "considering it" you don't mean you're considering not playing the game at all anymore, because that was not my intention. My intention was to tell you that it's just a game after all, and nothing in it is anti-Christian. Or, of course, you could just not build the sanctuary anymore. I think you could easily get by without rituals.

And yes, part of the reason is probably because there is a bigger number of more violent Muslims out there. If you want, see people making fun of your religion as a compliment: Christianity is mature enough to take a joke. But generally, there simply aren't that many Muslims in the gaming industry, I think, and if they were to use occult symbols based on an Islamic perception, most of their audience wouldn't know what they were - if indeed they are different - I wouldn't know. The ram's head is apparently based on Baphomet from the Egyptian mythology, and seeing as Islam has replaced that faith, I could easily see them using the ancient gods' symbols as symbols of evil.