Is it possible to defeat Master Ai head-on?

[The weird 1234]

When I play against Master Ai, I usually beat them by using a flaw in their dungeon. aka. Their backdoors. Yet I have never beaten them in a frontal fight. From what I have seen, it looks impossible. With the Ai constantly attacking weak units and such. So my question to you all. It is even possible to fight head to head with a Master Ai?

[Biervampir [AUT]]

Yes

[Green.Sliche]

Originally posted by The weird 1234:

When I play against Master Ai, I usually beat them by using a flaw in their dungeon. aka. Their backdoors. Yet I have never beaten them in a frontal fight. From what I have seen, it looks impossible. With the Ai constantly attacking weak units and such. So my question to you all. It is even possible to fight head to head with a Master Ai?

It is possible. Thing is you don't always need to do so. If you are curious as to how, pay attention to what army composition does AI have and try to counter it. The easiest way however is to simply build more units than opponent. That means lots of beasts, at least 5 embers and if possible at least 1 thunderling. This army with any titan will be enough to grind any army AI will come up to meat pudding from clash 1 and allow you dominate for the rest of the game. Feel free to experiment.

[USBsatan]

You are correct the master can only be defeated by manipulating the game. It is set up so that it violates the game rules and has access to things like a hacked xp table for it's minions and infinite mana.
If you are just playing casually never select the master. If you're trying to complete the achievements it's the under games where you'll have issues. I recommend setting the game to it's minimum speed, it will take you days to finish all the levels but it will give you a fighting chance of doing it.

[Korvek]

Originally posted by USBsatan:

You are correct the master can only be defeated by manipulating the game. It is set up so that it violates the game rules and has access to things like a hacked xp table for it's minions and infinite mana.
If you are just playing casually never select the master. If you're trying to complete the achievements it's the under games where you'll have issues. I recommend setting the game to it's minimum speed, it will take you days to finish all the levels but it will give you a fighting chance of doing it.

I assume this is a joke, in which case it is poor humour.

The AI does not have infinite mana or any advantage over a player. In no way does it cheat as this misleading post suggests, nor does it have any of these benefits. I know this because I worked on the AI and helped write its build orders. It simply uses aspects well and is able to micromanage effectively.

[USBsatan]

I hate to say it but you're wrong, I'm not having a go at you and I know you are trying to be helpful and putting over the truth as you know it.

I was playing a game last night and I've got a video of me blasting the AIs titan for a good 30 seconds strait with lightning and I could make one for 30 minutes strait and it would be the same. It uses it's infinite mana to heal with the gold spell, I had all the shrines and the AI was forced back into its heart so no reduced costs for it. Most maps I just block off titans and things if it starts using those cheats but this one I couldn't win without killing the invincible titan so had to give up and change maps.
I've also penned titans and sentinals into kill boxes with a dozen well of souls all feeding off them. The AI does the same and infinite heals them. I've had it spawn that many ghouls that the game starts to freeze up which is quite impressive.


On the xp tables as you obviously know you can see the xp remaining to lvl on any particular minion. I've watched the xp tables on enemy minions and they're hugely reduced. I've watched imps go from lvl1 to lvl10 in a couple of minutes.

AIs cheating is nothing new in computer games. Red Alert 2 used to do it back in the day when Dungeon Keeper 2 was new. You know they cheat and you find ways to adapt and outsmart them.

[Korvek]

Originally posted by USBsatan:

I hate to say it but you're wrong, I'm not having a go at you and I know you are trying to be helpful and putting over the truth as you know it.

I was playing a game last night and I've got a video of me blasting the AIs titan for a good 30 seconds strait with lightning and I could make one for 30 minutes strait and it would be the same. It uses it's infinite mana to heal with the gold spell, I had all the shrines and the AI was forced back into its heart so no reduced costs for it. Most maps I just block off titans and things if it starts using those cheats but this one I couldn't win without killing the invincible titan so had to give up and change maps.
I've also penned titans and sentinals into kill boxes with a dozen well of souls all feeding off them. The AI does the same and infinite heals them. I've had it spawn that many ghouls that the game starts to freeze up which is quite impressive.


On the xp tables as you obviously know you can see the xp remaining to lvl on any particular minion. I've watched the xp tables on enemy minions and they're hugely reduced. I've watched imps go from lvl1 to lvl10 in a couple of minutes.

AIs cheating is nothing new in computer games. Red Alert 2 used to do it back in the day when Dungeon Keeper 2 was new. You know they cheat and you find ways to adapt and outsmart them.

Trust me, I worked on the AI itself. I watched it perform and have recorded multiple videos of it performing. Here are some linked below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrrJIHyPb_s&list=PLvMJExi1iePlDkqVJmgXYK5_UY7uLJxOT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHyAwqdmarE&list=PLvMJExi1iePlWixabq54qDbOkPAfq0lbh


As you can see, the AI has no infinite mana or gold advantage. It literally has the same start as the player. The only thing the AI can do that the player cannot is see the entire map (it needs this as a matter of pathfinding).

The most likely reason is that you were playing on a map which featured a lot of gold or shrines. For instance, the colossus is currently bugged and is practically invincible because it can generate gold more quickly than it can be killed. I already ticketed this and eagerly await the patch to fix it. Likewise, if a map features more than one incantation shrine, mana becomes very cheap, especially when used with mana shrines.

If the AI is repeatedly having unlimited mana/gold then this is a bug and not an intended feature. Could you please send me a save file or recording of the game where this is happening and I will ticket it for you? I know for certain that the AI cannot make imps go from level 1 to 10 in a couple of minutes (I literally use the AI to playtest my maps lol, and even then it does a poorer job than me at a lot of the things I need it to do). Thus, if you are having this, it is very clearly a bug and a recording would help to clarify what the issue is.

[USBsatan]

I had the entire map the AI was forced back into it's heart and had nothing else, no gateways, no shrines, no rooms. I had all the shrines hence how i was able to blast it 100+ times with a lightning bolt.

where would you like me to send the file to?

I will take a recording of the hacked xp table next time I catch the AI doing it. And next time I set up a kill box I will take a video of that too so you can see it infinite healing all the sentinals at once.

thanks

[Korvek]

You can either submit it as part of a bug ticket (which would help the devs most) or you can simply send it to me.

If you wish, I can stream a match where I let the AI take control of my dungeon so that you can see how it works from an observation perspective. If this interests you then let me know, I am free to do it now.

Infinite healing sentinels is likely related to the colossus bug I mentioned. Simply put, the colossus generates too much gold and some of this gets "stored". The player has this too. The AI simply uses gild on multiple sentinels (you can do the same by holding down ctrl and clicking on the sentinel rally symbol with the gild spell).

[Green.Sliche]

AI nowhere has unlimited mana or boosted XP rates. On default Skirmish and Main Campaign, everything is absolutely fair and square there.

AI May have Unlimited Mana and Boosted XP on custom maps. This is because map maker may have given AI such advantage. This is true for content that features scripts and other stuff experienced map makers do use. Do Not Mix this with a cheat - it is a handicap.

In Undergames Official Campaign each ''faction'' has it's own bonuses and penalties. This May feature increased Mana Regen, XP and Gold Gain, unit attraction rates and so on. Undergames Campaign has custom settings defined and is made around those things. They are not cheats - more like specific boons exclusive to Specific Underlords.

To OP : Master AI is not that difficult. You may not be able to compete against it in speed but that doesn't mean it's better in other aspects. You can safely turtle and build many traps or army of your own. All you need to do is understand what each personality is good at and counter the selected tactic. If you need more information, simply play a map with an AI Ally of your desired personality and watch how they build and play. Another alternative is play 1v1 and use mutator which removes fog of war entirely. This way you can watch AI doing it's thing step by step and figure what's and when it's done.

[Biervampir [AUT]]

Originally posted by USBsatan:

I hate to say it but you're wrong, I'm not having a go at you and I know you are trying to be helpful and putting over the truth as you know it.

I was playing a game last night and I've got a video of me blasting the AIs titan for a good 30 seconds strait with lightning and I could make one for 30 minutes strait and it would be the same. It uses it's infinite mana to heal with the gold spell, I had all the shrines and the AI was forced back into its heart so no reduced costs for it. Most maps I just block off titans and things if it starts using those cheats but this one I couldn't win without killing the invincible titan so had to give up and change maps.
I've also penned titans and sentinals into kill boxes with a dozen well of souls all feeding off them. The AI does the same and infinite heals them. I've had it spawn that many ghouls that the game starts to freeze up which is quite impressive.


On the xp tables as you obviously know you can see the xp remaining to lvl on any particular minion. I've watched the xp tables on enemy minions and they're hugely reduced. I've watched imps go from lvl1 to lvl10 in a couple of minutes.

AIs cheating is nothing new in computer games. Red Alert 2 used to do it back in the day when Dungeon Keeper 2 was new. You know they cheat and you find ways to adapt and outsmart them.

I want to believ you here.
Could you give some examples on how you noticed that and how did you tested that?

Like look on how the AI train and uses mana and what was your point of reference?
Which map or level did you use?
Or other things

[The weird 1234]

Originally posted by Green.Sliche:

AI nowhere has unlimited mana or boosted XP rates. On default Skirmish and Main Campaign, everything is absolutely fair and square there.

AI May have Unlimited Mana and Boosted XP on custom maps. This is because map maker may have given AI such advantage. This is true for content that features scripts and other stuff experienced map makers do use. Do Not Mix this with a cheat - it is a handicap.

In Undergames Official Campaign each ''faction'' has it's own bonuses and penalties. This May feature increased Mana Regen, XP and Gold Gain, unit attraction rates and so on. Undergames Campaign has custom settings defined and is made around those things. They are not cheats - more like specific boons exclusive to Specific Underlords.

To OP : Master AI is not that difficult. You may not be able to compete against it in speed but that doesn't mean it's better in other aspects. You can safely turtle and build many traps or army of your own. All you need to do is understand what each personality is good at and counter the selected tactic. If you need more information, simply play a map with an AI Ally of your desired personality and watch how they build and play. Another alternative is play 1v1 and use mutator which removes fog of war entirely. This way you can watch AI doing it's thing step by step and figure what's and when it's done.

Oh I can turtle quite well. I'm only at a risk of losing in the beginning since like you said, Master Ai is a master at speed, it's just difficult to advance on a frontal assault with pinpoint lightning hurting my workers, traps in random corridors, and a never ending mob of beasts and creatures. Stuff life like that.


Since making this post I have experimented on drilling my way through the Ai's dungeon. It's something the Ai can't seem to account for.

Also I have also seen the gold titan and units being almost impossible to kill, but I also play with mutations to have passive gold income so that probably affects it.

[Green.Sliche]

You should avoid that mutator because if AI decides to go for sentinels and colossus, you will almost never kill them. Right now these are relatively broken and transmutation potion ( which in theory should do massive damage to sentinels ) doesn't seem to do much when a pack of 20+ sentinels march your way. Your best bet against this is to stall as much as possible, because sentinels are very expensive to maintain in large numbers, however killing sentinel yields it's full gold price back ( very genius design decision ) so your opponent can simply build a new if that gold is delivered back.

[The weird 1234]

Originally posted by Green.Sliche:

You should avoid that mutator because if AI decides to go for sentinels and colossus, you will almost never kill them. Right now these are relatively broken and transmutation potion ( which in theory should do massive damage to sentinels ) doesn't seem to do much when a pack of 20+ sentinels march your way. Your best bet against this is to stall as much as possible, because sentinels are very expensive to maintain in large numbers, however killing sentinel yields it's full gold price back ( very genius design decision ) so your opponent can simply build a new if that gold is delivered back.

It's actually quite fun having the mutator of gold. The ai builds tons of sentinels and when they try to assault my base, I shockwave them into the pit of "well of souls." After a minute or two of constant bombardment of soul sucking and gargoyles they die. after sucking away their owners gold. IT'S GLORIOUS!!

[Green.Sliche]

Originally posted by The weird 1234:

Originally posted by Green.Sliche:

You should avoid that mutator because if AI decides to go for sentinels and colossus, you will almost never kill them. Right now these are relatively broken and transmutation potion ( which in theory should do massive damage to sentinels ) doesn't seem to do much when a pack of 20+ sentinels march your way. Your best bet against this is to stall as much as possible, because sentinels are very expensive to maintain in large numbers, however killing sentinel yields it's full gold price back ( very genius design decision ) so your opponent can simply build a new if that gold is delivered back.

It's actually quite fun having the mutator of gold. The ai builds tons of sentinels and when they try to assault my base, I shockwave them into the pit of "well of souls." After a minute or two of constant bombardment of soul sucking and gargoyles they die. after sucking away their owners gold. IT'S GLORIOUS!!

I suppose you were lucky enough to avoid the undying colossus bug which takes all fps out of the game, making it unplayable.

[YouMoMCallME]

You should not complain about the AI. Play Dungeon Keeper 2, where the AI is very weak. You can just lower the difficulty of the AI and then you will be easier to cope with it. I personally play with the AI master and I am interested even if I lose.