Review of the Undergame campaign

[Celtik]

So, I've just been back to WFTO after the release of the new DLC and patch 2.0, and I've just finished the Undergame campaign as Shale on master difficulty. Here is what I think, may contain small spoiler.


A tournament between underlords? I like the concept! We already have 2 story driven campaigns with the main campaign and Heart of Gold, so it's a good thing that this time it is centered on underlords. I also like the fact that we can choose between four different underlords, each having its own strengths and weaknesses.

--- Scenario 1: Core Shards FFA ---
An original mode and a nice map allowing both offensive (rush) and defensive (turtle) strategies. As the narrator says, it's a good warm up and a nice way to discover how to play with the underlord we chose to play as. Good experience.

--- Scenario 2: 1v1 Underhill ---
Hmm... terrible scenario. I had to retry twice after being completely behind if I choose to start building a dungeon (which is what the game is about...). So I just rushed the underhills with the annex spell, then built a monster den and a foundry to pop up some defenses and I won easily. I played that map 2 additionnal times and that is the only viable strategy each time, which is not a strategy at all. Just rush the underhills and station your minions there. This one is badly designed imo.

--- Scenario 3: 1v1 Underhill ---
Sigh, again. This time the map layout is better but you still have to rush the center and the next closer underhill as soon as the game starts. It's better than scenario 2 but still a bad experience. It's not that it's difficult, it's just that you don't really play the game actually. Build a beast den, rush and hold and that's it.

--- Scenario 4 : FFA ---
Good map, good game. Multiple strategies are available as well as forming some temporary alliances if you wish. It was the best of all maps.

--- Scenario 5 : 2v2 Underhill ---
Underhill again but this time it was way better because it's 2v2. So you don't have to rush all 3 freaking underhills at the same time and you can just focus 1 while your ally focuses the other. Then you can move to take the center one. It was a much better experience than scenarios 2 & 3.

--- Scenario 6: 1v1 Core Shards ---
Really nice map against Korvek. I built a prison and torture chamber to convert the heroes while Korvek did the same on his side. It ended with a huge battle in the middle of his good defensive line. It was a really good game. But the enemy heroes can make the game too easy if you're against an underlord who doesn't build the torture chamber as you'll end up with much more minions than him.

--- Scenario 7: FFA ---
Just like scenario 4, a good map and it was a good game. A nice way to end this campaign.


Overall I had a good time except with scenarios 2 & 3. However I had a really good experience in scenario 5 so it's not the game mode that is wrong, it's more the maps. Maybe if there was only 1 underhill instead of 3. This way you can choose to take it asap or wait for the other to take it and try to take it back. When there are 3 of them you don't have any other choice than rush. Or you can also place 2 underhills, with one being close to underlord 1 and the other being close to underlord 2, this way each underlord takes his underhill and try to take the other afterwards. You have to attack and defend at the same time, it's more interesting.

In the end I highly recommend this DLC to anyone, the campaign is nice and it's not just a succession of skirmish maps.

[Korvek]

A nice review. I personally think that much of this turns on what one wishes to get out of the game. Being an aggressive player myself, I favoured maps 3, 5, and 7. Map 4 can end in stalemates whereas map 6 can be over in a few minutes. Map 2 is nice but it really requires a player to know the map beforehand or use prophecy well. I definitely agree though, the campaign is fun to play and the ability to choose between different underlords with different strategies adds a lot of replayability.

[Celtik]

I just played a skirmish map with the new Evil Arcane theme I unlocked by completing this campaign. This theme is fantastic, especially in red. Now I feel like a true underlord :)

[CrateEyeHowl]

I agree about the underhill maps. I'll try the annex spell strategy, but it's really frustrating to have your opponent take over all the underhills and put up defenses before your foot soldiers are even ready.

[Korvek]

The underhill maps require different play. Playing on Master, it is necessary to beeline them straight away. I can usually reach there before the AI does, with obey rather than annex, but a player really needs to know the map beforehand. The trouble lies not so much in AI development as it does in chokepoints. Effectively, if a player/AI can set up defences, the opponent is forced to fight against them whereas, usually, the opponent would try to attack from a different angle. This makes claiming underhills very important, and setting up a good defensive position wins the game.

I recommend either using prophecy to scout or doing a trial on a lower difficulty playthrough. As a tip, if you are going to capture one underhill, make an effort to rapidly capture all of them. One thing which should Always be on a player's mind is capturing them, and a player should be prioritising this over anything else.

This means get an early beast den (unless playing as Volta, in which case all you need is foundry + storm vortex), and take map control as best you can. Archive, for sins, alchemy lab for potions, a decent foundry for traps, and ember rifts (if playing as Shale), are all very useful. Unfortunately, once a player captures an underhill and places defences, the game is usually won by this point anyway.

[Woudo]

Level 2 and 3 are the only levels that require you to have your brain plugged in.

I personally thought 4 and 7 were the worst as they were the same every time. Boom economy, switch to 150 gamespeed, wait 40 minutes and roll over all players consecutively. Even turtling with Shale, the most aggressive of all the characters, is still the optimal strategy in these levels.

The AI lost their shard to the heroes every single time on level 6. They take too long to grab Stone Bridge so they always miss out on contesting the center island which is full of gold. The hero fortress was also way too fortified; attacking it was only for funsies after the level was effectively already won. Should add natural bridges connecting the shard islands to the center island to allow the AI to play and dig more aggressively.

[Crythor]

AI will be much more deadly with the next patch. So everyone who found it too easy should retry it. Especially hard lvl will be UG3 as lamash.

[Celtik]

Originally posted by Crythor:

AI will be much more deadly with the next patch. So everyone who found it too easy should retry it. Especially hard lvl will be UG3 as lamash.

How do you know that? Is there any communication on this, I'd like to know.

As I said previously in another post, the AI is quite strong early game and is not that easy to defeat on a tiny or small map, at least on master. But as the game goes on it just runs out of gold because it keeps building no matter what, even if it's a 6th foundy or 5th tavern... Also when it decides to sell a room it starts with the vault which is fine, but then it's the lair and archive, lol the ones you don't want to sell first. It could start with all those foundries. What's the deal with the AI and foundries by the way? Medium to late game all the AI has to fight with is a dozen of level 1 Chunders :D

Except the undertaker AI. Actually this one has much less trouble than the others because it builds a Sanctuary and uses Avarice all the time, which I do too. So this one is harder to defeat than the others. All AI builds should include this imo. Ravager or Guardian don't have anything to get gold when there is no more on the map, no Blood Money, no Sanctuary, nothing. I do hope this will be adressed in the next update.

[nutter666]

Originally posted by CeltiK:

How do you know that? Is there any communication on this, I'd like to know.

He knows because he's one of the guys involved in building/improving the AI. He (and me) are members of the volunteer/qa team that help the devs.

[Korvek]

I think I have suggested before that avarice/transmutation are something which AIs can and shall use in order to address their gold issue. The other big problem with the AI in the public build is that it does not attack...which is why gold becomes an even bigger issue since with its resources it should often have attacked/won already. As Crythor said though, the AI shall be much better in the coming patch.

[Crythor]

Originally posted by CeltiK:

Originally posted by Crythor:

AI will be much more deadly with the next patch. So everyone who found it too easy should retry it. Especially hard lvl will be UG3 as lamash.

How do you know that? Is there any communication on this, I'd like to know.

As nutter666 and webbernever1 said we 3 are all part of the QA volunteer team (though there are a lot more who help as well) that help with balance/fixes and other stuff.

Beside the programmer void most work on AI is done by Webbernever1 and me.

As Webbernever1 pointed out currently AI is bugged and has big issues regarding attacking. Combined with its gold problem it leads to the situations you described. Expect both and some other stuff ;) to be much better in the upcoming patch.

Therefore i can highly recommend replaying the Undergames campaign and playing against AI.
All types of AI (Ravager, Goldddigger etc.) have multiple build orders so playing them multiple times will let you face different tactics, so that is something you should retry after the patch too.

Some AI though works only good on gold rich maps still like the Golddigger Build orders so best select them on gold rich maps for maximum fun.

[Celtik]

I see, thank you guys for the information. The patch is still scheduled for june?

[nutter666]

Originally posted by CeltiK:

I see, thank you guys for the information. The patch is still scheduled for june?

It'll be done when it's done, is honestly the best answer any of us non-dev people can give you.

[Woudo]

Originally posted by nutter666:

Originally posted by CeltiK:

I see, thank you guys for the information. The patch is still scheduled for june?

It'll be done when it's done, is honestly the best answer any of us non-dev people can give you.

And the wisest answer the real devs could give as well.