Cheating AI or am I missing something

[rygood42]

So I created a game with some insane-difficulty AI just to watch how they play and they were creating units incredibly fast. Brutes were taking ~6 second to build and archers were taking ~4 seconds to build. I thought the whole praise of the AI in this game is that they do not cheat... Am I missing some critical technique to reducing my units build times or is the AI in fact cheating?

Edit 1:

So I just did some testing to see how much the AI cheats and here are the results:
(all percentages and times are approximate as I just used an iPhone and manually timed each event)

Insane - 80.6% Reduction in unit build time -- 80.8% Reduction in structure build time
Painful - 22.3% Reduction in unit build time -- 16.7% Reduction in structure build time
Tough - 11.2% Reduction in unit build time -- 10% Reduction in structure build time
Challenging - 0% Reduction in unit build time -- 0% Reduction in structure build time
Normal - 0% Reduction in unit build time -- 0% Reduction in structure build time
Easy - 130.5% Increase in unit build time -- 133.3% Increase in structure build time
Beginner - 388.8% Increase in unit build time -- 400% Increase in structure build time

Insane - Archer build time in seconds: 3.5/18 -- Factory build time in seconds: 5.75/30
Painful - Archer build time in seconds: 14/18 -- Factory build time in seconds: 25/30
Tough - Archer build time in seconds: 16/18 -- Factory build time in seconds: 27/30
Challenging - Archer build time in seconds: 18/18 -- Factory build time in seconds: 30/30
Normal - Archer build time in seconds: 18/18 -- Factory build time in seconds: 30/30
Easy - Archer build time in seconds: 23.5/18 -- Factory build time in seconds: 40/30
Beginner - Archer build time in seconds: 70/18 -- Factory build time in seconds: 120/30

Conclusion- It looks like from this simple test that at first glance Normal and Challenging difficulties are the only two AI settings that do not cheat/handicap. I am guessing (and hoping) for now that Challenging AI will just play better than the Normal AI without cheating, but it may very well cheat in a manner that I haven't observed yet such as resource collection rate, unit attack/defense stats, etc.

Edit 2:

Draginol (developer) has confirmed that the AI does get a resource boost on Challenging. Thanks!

[Frogboy]

At the highest difficulties (like Insane) the AI gets all kinds of boosts.

The claim to fame of Ashes is that the AI at normal is non-cheating and really really good.

The reason for an insane AI level is so that players can do comp stops with 3 or 4 people vs. a single AI.

[FreshHighVoultageGandalf]

whats with tough & painful ?

[Frogboy]

Challenging gives the AI a slight resource boost.

Tough and Painful give them more along with slightly faster build times.

In all cases, they are playing by the same rules you are. They don't get to "see" the map. They have FOW. Their weapons do the same damage as yours do. They aren't granted free units. They don't just spawn units in FOW (a common AI trick in games) to even the odds.

In most RTS games, what people don't usually realize is that the AI in those games knows all, sees all. It knows what you're building. It knows where you are. It knows your unit composition the moment it is constructed.

In Ashes, the AI doesn't know your units until it has seen them. You can ambush the AI. You can set up flank the AI. You can build a counter force knowing the AI won't just build defenses for it.

Most people don't realize just how brazenly most AIs cheat. As in, really cheat. What someone might call cheating in Ashes is akin to calling a bowling or golf handicap as cheating.

Most importantly, the AI in Ashes at normal can beat over 90% of players (it was something like 93% as of 0.92). And it's getting better and better.

[Ekko Tek]

Originally posted by Draginol:

Most importantly, the AI in Ashes at normal can beat over 90% of players (it was something like 93% as of 0.92). And it's getting better and better.

Really? Yikes...come on comp stompers, pull up your bootstraps - you're letting the human race down!

[Ticktoc]

Originally posted by Draginol:

Most importantly, the AI in Ashes at normal can beat over 90% of players (it was something like 93% as of 0.92). And it's getting better and better.

That is...surprising. I must be more 1337 than I thought haha ;/

[rygood42]

Originally posted by Ticktoc:

Originally posted by Draginol:

Most importantly, the AI in Ashes at normal can beat over 90% of players (it was something like 93% as of 0.92). And it's getting better and better.

That is...surprising. I must be more 1337 than I thought haha ;/

I know right!

[IronMana]

I'm not too surprised - especially if "can beat" means win a game at a non-zero rate.

But it's good that it can do that without any of those usual tricks which I see way too much of modding other AIs. It's one reason I loved Kohan 2's. It can't map hack if it wanted to. My first "job" is taking that stuff OUT of I can. I'd rather more resource bonuses to let it do human-player builds at a similar timing than map hacking or "creating" units out of thin air.
Total War AI is bad about that units in thin air crap in the strategic game and CoH2's AI USED to be able to toggle off the map hacking...but I think they hard coded it now.

[Frogboy]

Originally posted by Ekko Tek:

Originally posted by Draginol:

Most importantly, the AI in Ashes at normal can beat over 90% of players (it was something like 93% as of 0.92). And it's getting better and better.

Really? Yikes...come on comp stompers, pull up your bootstraps - you're letting the human race down!

That's why I'm on the AI's side. We're doomed.

[Ace]

I feel much better about myself now that I know that not being able to beat tough AI one on one still means I'm in the top 10% :D

I'll figure it out though. They aren't difficult for me to beat when I have an AI ally, but for whatever reason I'm bad at defeating Tough in FFA or 1vs1.

[EternallyHers]

It really depends on the map that you are playing on. If you play on a smaller map you can pretty easily resource stave a normal AI if playing 1 vs 1 but when playing on a bigger map I build a bomber base before armories. Basically I can easily bomb enemy supply points really early to get the upper hand on supplies and then I try to pick out a spot or two where I can take there nodes to cut off a lot of the supplies. I really love the way that the economy works in this game. It does add a lot of strategy.

[Jeslis]

Originally posted by Draginol:

Originally posted by Ekko Tek:

Really? Yikes...come on comp stompers, pull up your bootstraps - you're letting the human race down!

That's why I'm on the AI's side. We're doomed.

Do you mean in a 1v1 setting the Normal comp will win 90%? or in other settings? ((eg, 3v3 with AI on your team))

Last night I just won a 3v3... where my 2 teammate AI's went passive practically (I posted another thread late last night).. and essentially it was 3v1 against me.. and 3 hours later I won.

♥♥♥♥ the orbital abilities... but I won!

My dreadnoughts had 45,000 hp (up from the base 12,000?) from so many upgrades....

The entire top right corner of the map was filled with relay stations...

[Ticktoc]

Originally posted by Jeslis:

♥♥♥♥ the orbital abilities... but I won!

There has been some talk of eventually adding a mobile orbital jammer as they can be frustrating on the bigger maps. I think that could be good but as long as it was a new Dreadnought unit. If it was a T1 or T2 unit that would kill Orbital use totally. T3 orbital jammer would seem a reasonable fit.

[Jeslis]

Originally posted by Ticktoc:

Originally posted by Jeslis:

♥♥♥♥ the orbital abilities... but I won!

There has been some talk of eventually adding a mobile orbital jammer as they can be frustrating on the bigger maps. I think that could be good but as long as it was a new Dreadnought unit. If it was a T1 or T2 unit that would kill Orbital use totally. T3 orbital jammer would seem a reasonable fit.

Yea, I ended up moving up 5 inches.. then sending an army of 50 engineers in to construct a new orbital jammer...

I had my .. main base thingy, just SPAM building engineers.. cause every so often the my main group would eat a stray missile and just instant die... engineers need heath scaling better with upgrades imo....AND why don't buildings get health upgrades?

[Geeves]

Originally posted by Draginol:

Most importantly, the AI in Ashes at normal can beat over 90% of players (it was something like 93% as of 0.92). And it's getting better and better.

Gonna call shenanegans on that. I've never had any problems absolutely curbstomping the AI on normal and I wouldnt even call myself a mediocre player.

The AI is impressive as AI's go, but not "90% of players" impressive.

[Ticktoc]

Originally posted by Jeslis:

I had my .. main base thingy, just SPAM building engineers.. cause every so often the my main group would eat a stray missile and just instant die... engineers need heath scaling better with upgrades imo....AND why don't buildings get health upgrades?

I guess that is an area the Substrate can take advantage of as their Avatars are much much tougher.
Building HP could be lumped with the unit HP upgrade but there is plenty more room on the upgrades panel for a separate upgrade for building health. I like that more in theory as it is another way where players could differentiate what they choose, which I like. Though I guess it does spread Quanta out more thinly in smaller games.