Cheating AI

[§The LÅ BåkeR§]

The AI cheats constantly and it is extremely obnoxious. It makes me want to stop playing the game.
From miraculously catching up on the very last lap from a 40 second deficit and taking the lead in the last second, to AI cars being able to shove far more than the vehicle is able to(e.g. a lawnmower pushing around vehicles 10X the mass), and performing maneuvers the AI vehicle cannot do in human control, this is insanely obnoxious and makes me not want to play the game.
Granted, I play on the hardest difficulty settings, but that is not carte blanche for the devs to make the AI vehicle cheat to win, let alone these blatant in your face MarioKart 64 type cheating mechanics.

Are there people out there who think this is fun?
Why do these mechanics exist in most racing games?

It is as though they want to punish you for playing well, which is so completely back a$$wards, words cannot express my discontent.

I am very close to never buying another racing game again due to these inane and r3t@rded mechanics being so prevalent in the genre.

Devs found a way to make an entire genre of game undesirable.

[oberheim]

You completely missed what we are talking about. The topic starter wrote about bad AI and it is not a fun , I agree with him and you give as such argument about expert difficulty to destroying themselves to acomplish a task. Ok thanks for workaround but it is still not fun play against them.

[Les Grossman]

Originally posted by Oggmeista:

Snip

Technically you can setup a server and use cockpit cam only mod (from workshop). This way it will be enforced for everyone. But since population isn't too high, I doubt anyone will join this server.

Speaking about advantages, you see corners a lot better and have wider view in front. This way you can judge corners far more easily and it is more intuitive than from 3rd perspective. That's why simracers actually use cockpit or dashboard cam almost exclusively. Seeing stuff around can only be helpful in demo pits or full on no-rules, but if you got used to cockpit cam like I am, you can use minimap and look back/around to judge the situation. It works for me great.

However, playing on no-rule servers or full demo in cockpit only can't be convenient, because even if we assume game was true sim, cars get so banged up, you physically can't see anything anymore. It's not only front is twisted, obstructing view, but I often had roof bend inside, completely blocking all view. If that happens I usually switch to hood or bumper cam to see anything and keep racing. Making everyone drive cars in arcade bumping mode while they don't see anything and can't switch views is pure madness. No one will do it.

Originally posted by oberheim:

I can do that even on keyboard with automatic clutch on expert mode. AI have predefined behavour on each track and on some cornes is going slow, even with keyboard you will be better then AI. Wreckfest isn't a simulator and I expect to drive car even with keyboard and have a fun on easy mode if hard or expert is difficult. If only my car have driving phisics and opnents have none, it is not fun. And problem is not only driving a race but also in derby mode.

Fun is very subjective thing. I see Wreckfest AI as pretty fun and fair, especially for newcomers and you do have some options to tweak, to make AI or driving harder/easier, depending on what you want. Personally I got to the point, where AI stopped giving me any challenge at all and I just went full online where I'm having fun now.

Sure, AI in WF isn't perfect, but it's one of the best if we take racing games and arcades in general. You can disable rubberbanding by switching to Expert. AI makes mistakes, crashes, fights player, sometimes slides off and etc. It's rare to see. Usually in racing games AI either drive in conga line, completely ignoring player, or drives on steroids with super annoying rubberbanding, defying all physic laws, sliding over walls and whatnot.

[Pvt Tommy]

Originally posted by oberheim:

You completely missed what we are talking about. The topic starter wrote about bad AI and it is not a fun , I agree with him and you give as such argument about expert difficulty to destroying themselves to acomplish a task. Ok thanks for workaround but it is still not fun play against them.

But that is fun!!

[oberheim]

Originally posted by Les Grossman:

Fun is very subjective thing. I see Wreckfest AI as pretty fun and fair, especially for newcomers and you do have some options to tweak, to make AI or driving harder/easier, depending on what you want. Personally I got to the point, where AI stopped giving me any challenge at all and I just went full online where I'm having fun now.

It looks like you never played this game with AI, or your observation is not so good. I even noticed that some cars that never reach that speed run away from my view and they was not behind me but on front of me. I had much better car than theirs. This is far from fair and neither a fun.

Originally posted by Les Grossman:

Sure, AI in WF isn't perfect, but it's one of the best if we take racing games and arcades in general. You can disable rubberbanding by switching to Expert. AI makes mistakes, crashes, fights player, sometimes slides off and etc. It's rare to see. Usually in racing games AI either drive in conga line, completely ignoring player, or drives on steroids with super annoying rubberbanding, defying all physic laws, sliding over walls and whatnot.

Flatout 1 it has better however AI driving more clean, but compared to WF it was more fun. Dirt Showdown has similar or same AI, but it is tweaked in much better way. In my view it is same disaster as WF, if we speak for AI.

[Les Grossman]

Originally posted by oberheim:

It looks like you never played this game with AI, or your observation is not so good. I even noticed that some cars that never reach that speed run away from my view and they was not behind me but on front of me. I had much better car than theirs. This is far from fair and neither a fun.

Actually played too much against AI, had bad internet and also on modded tracks. Had that problem of cars running away when I didn't know how to control throttle > car traction properly, didn't know much about optimal lines and etc. After some times online, especially on racing servers, you pick up on so many things, AI gets irrelevant, and you see their traction and trajectories are far from good. But still looks pretty natural, as what average player would do.

Originally posted by Les Grossman:

Flatout 1 it has better however AI driving more clean, but compared to WF it was more fun. Dirt Showdown has similar or same AI, but it is tweaked in much better way. In my view it is same disaster as WF, if we speak for AI.

I've played Flatout 1 very long time ago and don't remember AI was anything good. In Flatout 2/UC I remember AI had personalities and drove differently. Showdown played for a while too, I find Codies AI very boring to race with in general. Too aggressive, player doesn't exist to them, and always 3 cars ahead who you can compete with, while whole pack in the back. It's literally from DiRT to GRID, all the same issues plus annoying rubberbanding you can't disable. In WF AI actually interacts with player a lot more.

[oberheim]

Originally posted by Les Grossman:

Actually played too much against AI, had bad internet and also on modded tracks. Had that problem of cars running away when I didn't know how to control throttle > car traction properly, didn't know much about optimal lines and etc. After some times online, especially on racing servers, you pick up on so many things, AI gets irrelevant, and you see their traction and trajectories are far from good. But still looks pretty natural, as what average player would do.

But what you wrote is far away from Wreckfest AI. In the Wreckfest AI doing such maneuvers that are impossible to do with any car you can get in game. Far away from natural.

[Pvt Tommy]

Originally posted by oberheim:

Originally posted by Les Grossman:

Actually played too much against AI, had bad internet and also on modded tracks. Had that problem of cars running away when I didn't know how to control throttle > car traction properly, didn't know much about optimal lines and etc. After some times online, especially on racing servers, you pick up on so many things, AI gets irrelevant, and you see their traction and trajectories are far from good. But still looks pretty natural, as what average player would do.

But what you wrote is far away from Wreckfest AI. In the Wreckfest AI doing such maneuvers that are impossible to do with any car you can get in game. Far away from natural.

Lol, Wreckfest AI is just that, a total wreckfest. They will kill themselves out there. I actually play on novice though.

[Purple44]

In Flatout, there were AI characters that drove fast and there was AI characters that drove badly. Player got use to which ones race fast and which ones race badly. Like Sofie want's to put you into a wall using her Canyon.

In Wreckfest there are AI profiles too that can make a "car" race fast, be aggressive or "car" race badly ( spin out in the turns ). But you don't know which car that is until after the first race. ;)

Hmmm, I just check into this a little bit and I see the AI profile are tied to each car. So depending on what cars are at the start line, you could have an idea how good or bad the AI will race?

http://www.lay-zmattress.com/flatout2/purple44/Next%20Car%20Game%202023/ai-car-profile.jpg

And there are AI profile mods out there to get AI to race cleaner.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2071487398&searchtext=profile

[oberheim]

Originally posted by Swattii:

Originally posted by oberheim:

But what you wrote is far away from Wreckfest AI. In the Wreckfest AI doing such maneuvers that are impossible to do with any car you can get in game. Far away from natural.

Lol, Wreckfest AI is just that, a total wreckfest. They will kill themselves out there. I actually play on novice though.

Indeed, I think I see your point. If we replace AI as swarm of bees or any other wild running animal, except visuals, it will be same experience. And it will start looking natural :).

[Pvt Tommy]

Originally posted by oberheim:

Originally posted by Swattii:

Lol, Wreckfest AI is just that, a total wreckfest. They will kill themselves out there. I actually play on novice though.

Indeed, I think I see your point. If we replace AI as swarm of bees or any other wild running animal, except visuals, it will be same experience. And it will start looking natural :).

That's literally just driving in America. I don't expect a foreigner to understand how dangerous it is to drive in my country. Wreckfest really provides a good example of American driving.

[oberheim]

Originally posted by Swattii:

Originally posted by oberheim:

Indeed, I think I see your point. If we replace AI as swarm of bees or any other wild running animal, except visuals, it will be same experience. And it will start looking natural :).

That's literally just driving in America. I don't expect a foreigner to understand how dangerous it is to drive in my country. Wreckfest really provides a good example of American driving.

If you said that.. but you still miss what I am writing about. In reality for everyone and anything are applied physics, you can expect how it behave if someone going 200 kmh speed into corner, while in Wreckfest the driving physics are applied only to your car.

[Pvt Tommy]

Originally posted by oberheim:

Originally posted by Swattii:

That's literally just driving in America. I don't expect a foreigner to understand how dangerous it is to drive in my country. Wreckfest really provides a good example of American driving.

If you said that.. but you still miss what I am writing about. In reality for everyone and anything are applied physics, you can expect how it behave if someone going 200 kmh speed into corner, while in Wreckfest the driving physics are applied only to your car.

I don't think so. The driving physics really mess up the AI. People have already mentioned that the AI don't really take corners all that well and I've seen them just ram into walls because they couldn't turn fast enough.

[Oggmeista]

Originally posted by Les Grossman:

Originally posted by Oggmeista:

Snip

Technically you can setup a server and use cockpit cam only mod (from workshop). This way it will be enforced for everyone. But since population isn't too high, I doubt anyone will join this server.

Speaking about advantages, you see corners a lot better and have wider view in front. This way you can judge corners far more easily and it is more intuitive than from 3rd perspective. That's why simracers actually use cockpit or dashboard cam almost exclusively. Seeing stuff around can only be helpful in demo pits or full on no-rules, but if you got used to cockpit cam like I am, you can use minimap and look back/around to judge the situation. It works for me great.

However, playing on no-rule servers or full demo in cockpit only can't be convenient, because even if we assume game was true sim, cars get so banged up, you physically can't see anything anymore. It's not only front is twisted, obstructing view, but I often had roof bend inside, completely blocking all view. If that happens I usually switch to hood or bumper cam to see anything and keep racing. Making everyone drive cars in arcade bumping mode while they don't see anything and can't switch views is pure madness. No one will do it.

Originally posted by oberheim:

I can do that even on keyboard with automatic clutch on expert mode. AI have predefined behavour on each track and on some cornes is going slow, even with keyboard you will be better then AI. Wreckfest isn't a simulator and I expect to drive car even with keyboard and have a fun on easy mode if hard or expert is difficult. If only my car have driving phisics and opnents have none, it is not fun. And problem is not only driving a race but also in derby mode.

Fun is very subjective thing. I see Wreckfest AI as pretty fun and fair, especially for newcomers and you do have some options to tweak, to make AI or driving harder/easier, depending on what you want. Personally I got to the point, where AI stopped giving me any challenge at all and I just went full online where I'm having fun now.

Sure, AI in WF isn't perfect, but it's one of the best if we take racing games and arcades in general. You can disable rubberbanding by switching to Expert. AI makes mistakes, crashes, fights player, sometimes slides off and etc. It's rare to see. Usually in racing games AI either drive in conga line, completely ignoring player, or drives on steroids with super annoying rubberbanding, defying all physic laws, sliding over walls and whatnot.

Sigh i'm not sure you are understanding my real point here at all, I have Assetto corsa and Competizione and RFactor 2 and automobilista 2 and etc, for actual (reasonably clean) racing, i got this game because surprise surprise guess what?
i wanted something which simulated destruction derby completion as it's a completely different experience to proper track racing.......Now implement my original argument, and btw switching views when the players perspective is obscured totally destroys the whole polint of playing, however everyone having to experience the same detrimental situation is not only fair but adds to the far more realistic immersion and fun of the experience massively imho , get it now?

[oberheim]

Originally posted by Swattii:

I don't think so. The driving physics really mess up the AI. People have already mentioned that the AI don't really take corners all that well and I've seen them just ram into walls because they couldn't turn fast enough.

And they still ram into walls, they are ram into walls even on straight lines...

[Pvt Tommy]

Originally posted by oberheim:

Originally posted by Swattii:

I don't think so. The driving physics really mess up the AI. People have already mentioned that the AI don't really take corners all that well and I've seen them just ram into walls because they couldn't turn fast enough.

And they still ram into walls, they are ram into walls even on straight lines...

Yeah, meaning it isn't that hard to surpass the AI. Wasn't your main point that the AI was unfair? How is it unfair when they make mistakes like we do?

That's the reason why I actually like the AI. They aren't necessarily glued to the track like in Project Cars.