Derby Mode is so wrong designed, it rewards you by doing cowards stuff.

[Huderlord]

I played this game for 40 hours now and I like it very much
The collision system is very satisfying, I love to look at all these hits and beats at other cars and I can feel the power in them.
The driving model is so good and I like racing mode.

But one thing is designed in this game very poor, the Derby Mode.
Fighting in derby mode is pointless at the beginning and mid game. Every derby match can be won by hiding somewhere or running away from other cars as long as everyone will have low HP.
Then you at full HP can easily kill the rest of cars with no effort. This way you can get 10 or more kills and be the leader and end with half or more HP on your car.
This is so wrong this is not how good derby gameplay should look like.

An old game on PSX called "Destruction Derby RAW" has the good derby mode, that is satisfying and feels like you actually fight. In that game, there was a SCORE counter visible on HUD.
The leader wasn't a car that got the most frags but instead the one who got the highest score.

Score system was clear to understand:
- you got points for spinning your opponents, 90-degree spin was scored less than 180d spin and 360d spin.

- you got points for rolling over your rivals. There was 180-degree roll counted and 360d roll.

- you got points for flipping cars through the hood or back (that was the hardest thing to do and you got plenty of score for this) this event was called looping the cars.

- you got points for normal hits/beats at the bumpers, at the side. More points for more damage. Hitting a roof and car chassis was scored more.

- you got points for special moves:
- jumping on the roof and crushing your opponents to the ground
- points for doing combos like spin+spin (HURRICANE), spin+roll (CORKSCREW), loop+spin (ROLLERCOASTER), roll+loop (REVOLVER), combining these moves with wrecking was also recognized by the game and it gives more points for doing so.
For example: Spin + Spin + wreck (A-Bomb), Roll + Roll + wreck (AIRLINE CRASH), Roll + Loop + wreck (GRIM REAPER) a thing that was scored the highest in game
- smashing a car to the barriers also counts differently (Barrier SLAM)

That is HOW a GOOD derby mode should look like it rewards you for fighting, it rewards you for thinking.


In WreckFest the biggest coward is the winner, the game rewards you for running like ... (you know).

[Purple44]

I think you are referring to the last man standing mode. Not deathmatch and team deathmatch.

Agree in LMS mode, you can go hide and save your car then come back to win. Last car still running wins the match no matter what.

In Flatout 2, just being the last car running did not automatically win you the derbys, you also had to have enough points to win match. This force you be active in the derby, not be a sandbagger!

I'm happy enough with how the scoring done in the deathmatch and team deathmatch. Winner is player with the most take downs and also lowest number of times player has wrecked his car. If 2 players have a tie in takedowns and wrecked cars, then it come down to which player has the most total points.

[Green1]

Last man standing is in fact terrible.

[Huderlord]

Deathmatch and team deathmatch is not much better than last man standing.
When you have respawns you can totally forget all your defenses and go hunting, ramming those cars with low HP. This is not much different than last man standing.
This is brainless gameplay, you need to run and observe who has low hp and ram in them, you don't have to worry about yourself because you respawn that's not fun at all.

Derby mode in "Destruction Derby RAW" (the third game of the DD series) is so much better designed, you actually have to think strategically. Running away and waiting for those players with low hp doesn't make you a winner. Instead of observing who is nearly death and ramming them, you need to observe good situations to perform precision smash that will cause your opponent to dance and perhaps make a combo with another car.
And at top of that, you must always have in mind your defenses because you not respawn.

This is not a stupid brainless RammingFest.

[Purple44]

Well online, when we switch things up and do a couple of derbys, it mainly to let loose and hit someone. Not much thinking going, except trying get the right angle to nail that guy cutting across the stadium arena!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObLMvuwrZgc

[Loafy]

Of all the sweet racing games that we have nowadays I thought at least one might have became something great.

I am still looking for a game to be on the level with Test Drive: Eve of Destruction

Simply no driving racing demo derby game has came close to touching what to me is still the greatest racing game out there.

A limited open world career mode

Starting with nothing. You inherit your Grandma's Chevette. Sell It? Trade it ? Race it? Upgrade it?

Then drive to the local diner to see if anyone wants to race!

Oh hey there is an event happening out of town. Race to the event hopefully beating a rival to the course out of town!

Oh no! You should have a cheap derby car to smash in the demolition derby! Your Chevette is gonna get wrecked!


Trailer races. Chain Races. Figure 8.

This was on Gamecube and PS2 13yrs ago! Amazing we haven't had another title on this level for this many years. I still play TD:EoD regularly with my ancient Ps2.

It's simply just fun to play.

So many games I have now which just make me think what happened? Why is everything so dumbed down.

I guess I can always play Test Drive knowing that it delivers 13 years later. An astounding career mode and solid gameplay.

Sorry for the rant. But I was playing Wreckfest earlier at a friends house. Until I mentioned Test Drive.

[Huderlord]

I did not know that test drive series had this type of game. It is avaible on X360 so i give it a shot.

Speaking of good derby racing games, i like clever level design in Destruction Derby Raw with tons of jumping that can get you adventages in scoring or with tons of traps where you can be pushed and slowed down. You don't need to lead to win the race but high position can greatly help you in getting top score at the end.

This is also what i like more in racing mode than in WreckFest. But i hate derby mode more so this topic i started is about derby not racing.

[TΩKSYK]

Originally posted by Loafy:

Test Drive: Eve of Destruction

This game was fun for its time, too bad I didn't own a console and only played it on my friend's PS2 back then, it was really fun but then I got Flatout for my PC and it kept me busy for a long time, and Flatout's driving felt way better IMO.

I honestly I think it is mostly nostalgia though, Wreckfest is obviously superior in every aspect, graphics, physics, damage system, etc. Wreckfest is lacking a few things though, detailed maps, wide variety of cars, a good campaign, and maybe art direction, needs some night/dusk maps, wet tracks, etc.

[Huderlord]

"Wreckfest" has a great physics, great graphics, great hit/smash/impact into other cars sensation, great feeling of it.
In terms of used technology Wreckfest is at a very high level.

But it lacks good gameplay design.

The Wreckfest's racing mode is designed in such a way that the player is punished for trying to collide with others.
To be a winner, you must be first in the finish line and that's all. The game doesn't reward you for being aggressive, for the use of its greatest collision system. On the contrary, you are punished for this type of play because you usually lose your lead when you are crashing into others.
The game doesn't reward you in any way the use of immoral moves on opponents. I know that for this type of moves you are granted by experience points but this has nothing to do with winning the race.

You lose your lead, you lose a race so where is the point of smashing into others?

This is not a good gameplay design for a DERBY race game.
If I want clear race I rather play some normal semi-simulation game, some Forza, Granturismo and so on.

[Green1]

Originally posted by Huderlord:

"Wreckfest" has a great physics, great graphics, great hit/smash/impact into other cars sensation, great feeling of it.
In terms of used technology Wreckfest is at a very high level.

But it lacks good gameplay design.

The Wreckfest's racing mode is designed in such a way that the player is punished for trying to collide with others.
To be a winner, you must be first in the finish line and that's all. The game doesn't reward you for being aggressive, for the use of its greatest collision system. On the contrary, you are punished for this type of play because you usually lose your lead when you are crashing into others.
The game doesn't reward you in any way the use of immoral moves on opponents. I know that for this type of moves you are granted by experience points but this has nothing to do with winning the race.

You lose your lead, you lose a race so where is the point of smashing into others?

This is not a good gameplay design for a DERBY race game.
If I want clear race I rather play some normal semi-simulation game, some Forza, Granturismo and so on.

So do you want me & people like me to come smash you off the track on lap 1 then set a all time record lap time while we pass your carcass? Careful what you ask for! Some people/veterans are good at everything. There Is a Finish line. The people that like winning AGGRESSIVELY seek the number 1# spot. Guess you never started in last & fought like a madman up to the front Pfff

I only play online. hahha

That`s where you find out how slow the A.I. is.

[jannesBB]

Well, Wreckfest is first and foremost a racing game, and although playing dirty and wrecking others is part of it, the first across the finish line wins. You could say that hell yeah, then add nitro to reward causing chaos but something like that would change the gameplay dynamics too much in the sense that driving better than others and playing your cards clever wouldn't anymore make you the best.

The Last Man Standing is a sort of depiction of the real-world derbies with the same sort of rules but of course being in that car for real makes all the difference, it's very difficult to reproduce that in a game.

[Huderlord]

Originally posted by jannesBB:

Well, Wreckfest is first and foremost a racing game, and although playing dirty and wrecking others is part of it, the first across the finish line wins. You could say that hell yeah, then add nitro to reward causing chaos but something like that would change the gameplay dynamics too much in the sense that driving better than others and playing your cards clever wouldn't anymore make you the best.

The Last Man Standing is a sort of depiction of the real-world derbies with the same sort of rules but of course being in that car for real makes all the difference, it's very difficult to reproduce that in a game.

Originally posted by Green1:

So do you want me & people like me to come smash you off the track on lap 1 then set a all time record lap time while we pass your carcass? Careful what you ask for! Some people/veterans are good at everything. There Is a Finish line. The people that like winning AGGRESSIVELY seek the number 1# spot. Guess you never started in last & fought like a madman up to the front Pfff

I only play online. hahha

That`s where you find out how slow the A.I. is.

I'm thinking about a scoring system where a player with highest points counter is the winner, not a player who is first at the finish line.

You get points both for reaching a high position in the race and for doing carnage as well.
So the winner is not the fastest player but a player who can find the best balance between doing carnage and be the fastest racer.

This is how I see a good Derby racing.
At this point of Wreckfest development, there is no much difference between playing some normal racing game and Wreckfest because you need to race clean to win as in other racing games.

[Killer]

Derby should be banging all cars for most wrecks and most damaged cars. Fleeing from others is boring and seems not good mechanic.

"
The Wreckfest's racing mode is designed in such a way that the player is punished for trying to collide with others.
To be a winner, you must be first in the finish line and that's all. The game doesn't reward you for being aggressive, for the use of its greatest collision system. On the contrary, you are punished for this type of play because you usually lose your lead when you are crashing into others.
The game doesn't reward you in any way the use of immoral moves on opponents. I know that for this type of moves you are granted by experience points but this has nothing to do with winning the race.

You lose your lead, you lose a race so where is the point of smashing into others?

This is not a good gameplay design for a DERBY race game.
If I want clear race I rather play some normal semi-simulation game, some Forza, Granturismo and so on. "

I totally agree. In races we can't wreck others, can't crash. It's totally different that we see in Flatout 2.

[Purple44]

I've seen Loop races where all the leaders of the race been wrecked, only a wrecker still going, maybe in a bus. :)

[MamieNova]

The described scoring system would make a good additional derby mode.

One that I would actually care to play for the precision it requires! Entering an arena full of seasoned scorers would be quite the experience.
Thanks to this being a videogame with "a perfect referee", you could clearly go as far as getting combos (not necessarily extreme, possibly limited to only one consecutive hit)

All the physics are already in there, we just need a way to count those points oO

By all means, let's get crazy and even consider a few tricks where you need more than two cars, like sandwiching someone or getting a cheap hard shot on a poor guy that just got sent flying your way by someone else (an "alley hoop" if you will XD)

Damn, now I want this mode so bad.

[Mr Deanster]

Last man standing mode is good in *checks notes* intense damage mode. Where the attacker gets little damage and the defender gets a lot. In team LMS its more fun to play on realistic.